Xref: utzoo comp.sys.mac.games:1743 rec.games.misc:12050 Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!agate!shelby!portia.stanford.edu!elaine0.stanford.edu!draphsor From: draphsor@elaine0.stanford.edu (Matt Rollefson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.games,rec.games.misc Subject: Re: RPG opinions (was Re: Programmer...) Message-ID: Date: 8 Nov 90 04:00:36 GMT References: (cross-listed to rec.games.misc) <1990Nov3.234058.23166@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu> Sender: news@portia.Stanford.EDU (USENET News System) Organization: AIR, Stanford University Lines: 63 It looks like what you guys are looking for is not so much a computer role-playing game of the sort that have come out (basically hack-n-slash, with some puzzle solving but to an extent isolated from the role-playing experience), but rather an implementation of a role-playing system on the computer. That is, getting the computer to represent your characters and the world they interact with in its terms, and to take care of all the mechanical stuff of how they interact, how combat works, etc. A couple of points. 1) This is a *very* ambitious project. From what I've seen, most computer games implement a fairly detailed combat system, a detailed but simplistic magic system (mainly useful in combat), and then a very simplistic set of rules about movement and character interaction. The character interaction stuff especially is very weak. Now, if you're going to make a really general game system, you're going to have to throw away all assumptions about what kind of characters are going to be coming along, what kind of goals they're going to have, etc. The programmer will have to come up with a completely *general* way for non-player characters to react to the players. This is a daunting task to say the least. Even the less demanding (theoretically - as, to truly implement general NPC reaction, you need sophisticated AI) task of setting up rules for most of the normal actions characters wish to take is pretty tough. To get an idea of the number of rules needed, take a look at a Role-Playing Game - say, GURPS. The Basic rulebook is about 300 pages. Granted, not all of this is mechanistic rules by any means. But still, there's a lot of information in there. Coding this in a general way would be real tough. But, let's grant that we are able to do this - code a general system. We now have to create a world. On the character-creation side, this isn't too tough. We just give the players certain limited options depending on how the world is set up. But when it comes time to start detailing the world - well, here you're in trouble. As soon as you throw away the 'quest' and 'one true path' ideas, you have to attempt to account for *everything* your characters might do. In a RPG with a game master, the game master can make the decisions about how hard this wall is to climb and such. A computer isn't quite so smart - it needs to know. You'd need a very sophisticated world-builder with a large set of objects in order to come up with anything vaguely believable. Not to say that it couldn't be done. But it would be tough. In conclusion, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the games that most people here seem to want (and I must admit, I'm one of them in spades!) are out of the realm of true 'games' and much more into 'simulations'. When you're trying to simulate the complexities of 'real' life (albeit with fantastic elements), the programming gets incredibly complex. (This is speaking as a purely amateur pseudo-programmer; I've done some very limited actual programming. But I think I have a good enough understanding to be at least semi-aware of the difficulties involved. At the very least, I don't think I'm over-stating the difficulty...) 2) There is no 2. I said everything I wanted to say in 1. :) -- Draphsor vo'drun-Aelf draphsor@portia.stanford.edu