Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!julius.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!sun-barr!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: davidh@tektronix.tek.com (David L Hatcher) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Sorry folks, it's NOT all relative. Message-ID: Date: 6 Nov 90 03:13:32 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 118 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: >In article , JKH107@psuvm.psu.edu (Joy Haftel) writes: >> In article , >> davidh@tektronix.tek.com (David L Hatcher) says: >> >> > The experience of God living with in ones soul reaches way beyond >> >any defination as defined by man. Which is what you gave. I'm much >> >more interested in the religious experience of God as God Himself >> >is manifested with in the soul of man as the place to examine and >> >compare religious truths. >> >I believe that here, you are speaking of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. >While the Holy Spirit reaches everyone in some way or another, only those >who have salvation are permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit. > >THus, those who subscribe to Islam, Judiasm, Hinduism, etc. and therby do not >have salvation do not have the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thus, >since there is no permanent manifestation of the Holy Spirit in people who >have rejected salvation, there can be no comparison. How do you tell if a person has the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Just because a person says that Jesus Christ is Lord does not mean that they are indwelled with the Holy Spirit? And I have come across a lot of Christians whom I did not feel much, if any, of Gods spirit manifesting from their being. Is every Christian indwelling with the Holy Spirit? I think not. How can you tell? And how can you tell that infact "you" are indwelled with the Holy Spirit? In asking others, all I have heard is that "you can tell". Well in reading about the saints, sages and mystics of the various religions, they talk about an inner experience of the indwelling of the Spirit of God. They say that they can tell also. And their poetry, the spiritual depths of their writings, their wisdom, and even their fruit point towards their knowing something of what they are talking about. Now other than empty claims of "it just can not be", I'd like to see someone here look into the heart of the lovers of God in other religions and share what they see. This is a spiritual inquiry of others of other paths that I point towards. It's spiritually looking AT what others are seeing, and seeing it how they see it. If no one is willing to do so, how can they honestly make claims that there is no permanent manifestation of the Holy Spirit in people who find God in spiritual paths that are not Christian? >Many people who were followers of Islam, Judiasm, etc. said that >they performed their religion simply as a function of their lifestyle. It >was expected that they perform mechanical acts such as facing in a certain >direction while praying, etc. They say that they felt practically no connection to God, >that is, until they became Christians and were indwelled by the Spirit. Not being a Christian, I come across folks who have left Christianity and come around looking for something more satisfying, spiritually speeking. To a lot of them, they felt that they were empty because they were expected to perform mechanical acts also. But Christianity IS NOT about mechanical acts. And neither are other religions when a person is truly searching for God! >Yet, it is important that we have faith >in God, not faith in faith. Amen!! >> I thus believe that >> while other religions may partially touch God, they are also being deceived >> by Satan who can manufacture religious emotions in people. Again I ask, other than claims, and in looking not at "religious emotions" but at the inner "experience" (not emotions, and not feelings either) of God, what are others of other paths knowing and experiencing. The following story is by the Sufi poet and saint Jelaluddin Rumi. This story may be technically wrong in the names he uses for the leaders of the Christian Church, but he does point towards an awareness of the Holy Spirit, along with an awareness of where many Christians direct their own thoughts. _The Jewish King, his Vazir, and the Christians_ A certain Jewish king use to persecute the Chistians, desiring to exterminate their faith. His Vazir persuaded him to try a stratagem, namely, to mutilate the Vizir himself, and expel him from his court, with the intent that he might take refuge with the Christians, and stir up mutual dissensions amungst them. The Vazir's suggestion was adopted. He fled to the Christians, and found no difficulty in persuading them that he had been treated in that barbarous way on account of his attachment to the Christian faith. He soon gained complete influence over them, and was accepted as a saintly martyr and divine teacher. Only a few discerning men divined his treachery; the majority were all deluded by him. The Christians were divided into twelve legions, and at the head of each was a captain. To each of these captains the Vazir gave secretly a volume of religious directions, taking care to make the direction in each volume different from and contradictory to those in the others. One volume injoined fasting, another charity, another faith, another works, and so on. Afterwares the Vizir withdrew into a cave, and refused to come out to instruct his disciples, in spite of all their intreaties. Calling the captains to him, he gave secret instruction to each to set himself up as his successor, and to be guided by the instruction in the volume secretly confided to him, and to slay all other claimants of the apostolic office. Having given these direction, he slew himself. In the event, each captain set himself up as the Vazirs successor, and the Christians were split up into many sects at enmity with one anther, even as the Vazir had intended. But the malicious scheme did not altogether succeed, as one faithful band cleaved the the name of "Ahmad"(see John 14:26) mentioned in the Gospel, and were thus saved from sharing the ruin of the rest. ------ Thank you, David Hatcher