Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!know!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!mit-eddie!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Uneducated Need Not Apply Message-ID: Date: 6 Nov 90 08:57:33 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 120 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Hello David, I recently read your comments in article concerning Jehovah's witness and their beliefs. As one of Jehovah's witness myself I thought I would add a comment or two... First, I am glad that you take the time to talk to us when we stop by your door. Although you don't agree with certain doctrines, we appreciate your time and the conversations that we have with you. You wrote: |I believe that the only criterion for salvation is that we trust only in |Christ's death and resurrection for our salvation, and do not rely in |any way on our works as contributing to that salvation. Jehovah's Witnesses, |as far as I can tell, do not do this. I have asked several JW's who |have come to my door, 'How is a man saved?' and the answer I have gotten |is either 'by living a christian life' or 'by following Christ's example'. |When I point out Ephesians 2:8-9, they generally say 'Oh, yes, we believe |that' but I believe their first response is the most accurate. After |all, these are people coming to my door and claiming to know Scripture |cover to cover. If they are really doing christian evangelism, then |there is no way that they should be able to point out every verse in the |Bible that seems to deny Christ's divinity or the eternal punishment of |the unbeliever, but get the most important doctrine of the Bible wrong, |that is, if they really believe that 'it is by grace you have been saved, |through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not |by works, so that no one can boast.' For the life of me, I have never understood why people make such an issue over the faith/works issue. In my reading of the Bible, I have always seen that it points out that salvation is due to faith in Jesus and the value of his ransom sacrifice. This faith is expressed in many ways, in the things we say, think, and do. There are several discussions in the Bible that point out that uselessness of faith without works as well as works without faith The main point being that Salvation is through faith. True faith will bring forth works. I am sorry that this was somehow miscommunicated to you. Perhaps the witnesses that you spoke with were new... As for the "official position" of Jehovah's witnesses, this is what I found in what I call our "door-to-door handbook" called Reasoning from the Scriptures: Under the Subject of Salvation, page 359:(comments in parenthesis are from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation? -------------------------------------------------------------- Eph 2:8,9 RS "By grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works lest any man should boast." (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God's undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.) Heb 5:9 RS "He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who *obey* him. (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are "saved through faith"? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.) Jas. 2:14,26 RS "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." (A person does not *earn* salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith *will* have works to go with it - works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.) Acts 16:30, 31 RS "'Men, what must I do to be saved?' And they [Paul and Silas] said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'" (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.) |................................After |all, these are people coming to my door and claiming to know Scripture |cover to cover. If they are really doing christian evangelism, then |there is no way that they should be able to point out every verse in the |Bible that seems to deny Christ's divinity or the eternal punishment of |the unbeliever, but get the most important doctrine of the Bible wrong, |that is, if they really believe that 'it is by grace you have been saved, |through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not |by works, so that no one can boast.' Following Jesus' command at Math 28:19,20 (*Go* make disciples....teaching them to observes the things that I have commanded....) is never an easy thing to do. Certainly, I don't go to anyones door with the purpose of trying to claim any superior knowledge of the Scriptures. I just go because I am trying to do the best I can to show my love of God, Jesus, and neighbor. Nothing more, nothing less. Just trying to help and encourage people to learn more about the Bible and the salvation that comes trough faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. And as I said, it is never easy, knowing as I do that the vast majority of people don't welcome us. I always try to keep in mind that Jesus and the apostles were also percieved as a nuisance by many of their day because they approached people to talke about God, Jesus, and the Scriptures. |I might add that I do not believe the Jehovah's Witnesses truly |confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord. Their Lord is Jehovah, and |they do not believe that Jehovah is the same as Jesus. (See Romans |9:13 and compare Joel 2:32). What can I add to this except to say that I do confess Jesus as my Lord. This is what the Bible says. This is what every witness that I have ever known has confessed. It is also the "official" position of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Joel 2:32 says that "all who call on the name of Jehovah will be saved." I am unsure why you are quoting Romans 9:13. Best Regards...... ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep [This comes down to what you mean by "Jesus Christ is Lord". If it means that we are committed to following Jesus as his disciple, and as our way to God, then I see no reason to doubt JW's when they say that they acknowledge Christ as their Lord. However it appears that David took Lord as a reference to God, and mean by the statement that he acknowledges Jesus as God. Of course JW's do not. As he implies, JW beliefs reject the full deity of Christ, as well as the Trinity, both of which they consider to be non-Biblical. The discussion is going to become very confused unless we realize that the same phrase is being used differently. --clh]