Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Validity of Baptism (Was Re: In Communion with Rome?) Message-ID: Date: 8 Nov 90 03:23:42 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 89 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) writes: > >In all the discussion on baptism, I haven't seen any dialog on the >prerequisite of baptism --repentance. Acts 2:38. I would think that >would have more bearing on an effective baptism than who does it which >is not addressed specifically in Scripture. In Acts 2:38 Peter responds to a crowd of Jews who have heard his Pentecost sermon. They asked "Brothers, what shall we do?" His response is: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven." I don't see here a requirement that one repent prior to Baptism. Repentance is however, a necessary fruit or result of faith. Luther wrote in his Large Catechism: "Here you see that Baptism, both by its power and by its significance, comprehends also the third sacrament, formerly called Penance, which is really nothing else than Baptism. What is repentance but an earnest attack on the old man and an entering upon a new life? If you live in repentance, therefore, you are walking in Baptism, which not only announces this new life but also produces, begins, and promotes it. In Baptism we are given the grace, Spirit, and Power to suppress the old man [i.e., sinful nature] so that the new may come forth and grow strong. Therefore Baptism remains forever. Even though we fall from it and sin, nevertheless we always have access to it so that we may again subdue the old man. But we need not again have the water poured over us. Even if we were immersed in water a hundred times, it would nevertheless be only one Baptism, and the effect and significance of Baptism would remain. Repentance, therefore, is nothing else than a return and approach to Baptism, to resume and practice what had earlier been begun but abandoned." It seems I began this discussion, and in ways it has drifted into areas that to me are not that interesting, e.g., 'who may Baptize, the minister, any christian, anybody, etc.' These are questions of practice, which, though they may be important, can distract us from the important doctrinal questions regarding our understanding of the Sacrament. In a way, the question I would like to ask is almost the same, namely, "Who is it that Baptizes?" The answer that I give, is "God". It is God who Baptizes through the power of his Word. It is God who makes Baptism valid and effective. This was my original point, that Baptism depends not on the faith of the one Baptized, or the authority or faith of the minister, but on God's Word and promise. In particular when the minister uses Christ's words in connection with the physical element(s) in accordance with Christ's command, then we have a valid sacrament. Now then, Charlie Wingate writes: >Vincent Paul Mulhern writes: >>I know of a police sergeant who is Episcopal, who, at the scene of a nasty >>auto accident, "emergency-baptized" a victim who was not expected to live. >>Well, the guy did survive and turned out to be Jewish. He got pretty mad >>that they had done that to him... >I think it's safe to say that this would not be considered a valid baptism. I have to respectfully disagree. Not that I expect this man, who rejects Christ and his Baptism, to be saved. But if he were later to be converted, I would regard his Baptism as valid. Wouldn't his conversion confirm the validity of his Baptism? Doesn't this show the working of the Holy Spirit in him? Not that I endorse (as a matter of practice) Baptizing unbelievers against their will! Although in a sense, when we Baptize infants at their parents' request, we are doing just that. For "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so." (Romans 8:7). Sorry to be so long-winded. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "If Thy beloved Son, O God, Had not to earth descended And in our mortal flesh and blood, Had not sin's power ended, Then this poor, wretched soul of mine In hell eternally would pine Because of its transgression. All righteousness by works is vain, The Law brings condemnation; True righteousness by faith I gain, Christ's work is my salvation. His death, that perfect sacrifice, Has paid the all-sufficient price; In him my hope is anchored." --Wenn dein herzliebster Sohn, o Gott -- Johann Heerman, 1630. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.