Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Trinity (Was Re: The Uneducated Need Not Apply) Message-ID: Date: 8 Nov 90 03:24:00 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 154 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: > I wrote: >|I might add that I do not believe the Jehovah's Witnesses truly >|confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord. Their Lord is Jehovah, and >|they do not believe that Jehovah is the same as Jesus. (See Romans >|9:13 and compare Joel 2:32). > >What can I add to this except to say that I do confess Jesus as my Lord. This >is what the Bible says. This is what every witness that I have ever known has >confessed. It is also the "official" position of the Watchtower >Bible and Tract Society. Joel 2:32 says that "all who call on the name of >Jehovah will be saved." I am unsure why you are quoting Romans 9:13. > It seems my post had a typo. I should have referred to Romans 10:13: "for, 'Everone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' " This is in direct reference to Romans 10:9: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in you heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That Paul quotes Joel 2:32 in this context clearly shows that he identified Christ with Jehovah. In addition, there are the more obvious texts such as John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Witnesses, not believing these words, translate them "...the Word was a god." which appears to teach polytheism and subordinationism. But, christian scholars say that if you do this, then to be consistent you would also have to translate other passages: John 1:6: "There was a man from a god" John 1:12: "To all who received him...He gave power to become children of a god." John 1:18: "No one has ever seen a god." which passages, you will agree, clearly refer to God. In John 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and my God!" and Christ does not rebuke him. By way of contrast, Peter (Acts 10:25-26), Barnabas and Paul (Acts 14:11-18), and an angel (Rev. 19:10, 22:8-9) rebuke others who tried to worship them. Yet Jesus commended Thomas. Hebrews 1:6 says "And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, Let all God's angels worship him." So Christ is to be worshipped -- because he is God. Hebrews 1: 10 quotes Psalm 102:25-27, referring again to Christ: "In the beginning, O Lord [Jehovah = Christ], you laid the foundations of the earth,..." Then we have Colossians 1:15-20: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. This clearly speaks of Christ as God, for he 1. created all things, in heaven and on earth. If he was in fact created he must have created himself! 2. All of God's fullness dwells in him [see also Col 2:9] 3. He exercises the functions of 'Divine Providence' "In him all things hold together". 3. The passage does not say he is created, but 'firstborn'. This really speaks of his birthright: all created things must defer to him. A clear explanation of the truth is given in the Nicene Creed (I give an partially updated translation from memory): "We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, Begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, By whom all things were made; ..." and as we confess in the Athanasian Creed: Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ;..." I could write much more, but I think I've made my point that the Scriptures teach that Jesus is God, is Jehovah. Sorry if I've rehashed ground covered previously. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. "Isaiah, mighty seer in days of old The Lord of all in spirit did behold High on a lofty throne, in splendor bright, With flowing train that filled the Temple quite. Above the throne were stately seraphim; Six wings had they, these messengers of Him. With twain they veiled their faces, as was meet, With twain in rev'rent awe they hid their feet, And with the other twain aloft they soared, One to the other called and praised the Lord: 'Holy is God the Lord of Sabaoth! Holy is God the Lord of Sabaoth! Holy is God the Lord of Sabaoth! Behold His glory filleth all the earth!' The beams and lintels trembled at the cry, And clouds of smoke enwrapped the throne on high." -- a hymn for the Trinity season based on Isaiah 6:1-4 by Martin Luther. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.