Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!intercon!news From: ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) Newsgroups: rec.birds Subject: Re: INDOOR: More questions on feeding Message-ID: <2741BF6D.5F36@intercon.com> Date: 14 Nov 90 22:04:29 GMT References: <962@babcock.cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu> <9003@cognos.UUCP> <273716A3.4683@intercon.com> <1990Nov7.193411.22165@cbnewsd.att.com> <273AFB50.15E1@intercon.com> <9035@cognos.UUCP> Sender: usenet@intercon.com (USENET The Magnificent) Reply-To: ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation, Herndon, VA Lines: 109 In article <9035@cognos.UUCP>, stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) writes: > I'd interested in your research. The good pellets (and they are hard > to distinguish from the others) have quite a bit of research put into > their composition done by people with doctorates in animal nutrition. > Have you gone to that level of detail? Of course I haven't. But one thing you must realize is that 1) most of the research that has been done has been done with chickens, not psitacines and 2) most of the people who have done research have done this in order to sell product. > >1) NO pelleted diet is "complete" regardless of what the ads say. > What's missing? Nobody KNOWS what's missing. That's part of the problem. > >2) Protein levels should be kept at about 16-18% in adult birds, REGARDLESS > > of whether they are breeding. Higher protein can cause a phenomenon > > that looks like calcification, tumors, etc. etc. This rules out > > dog food, most breeder formulations of pellets, etc. > This flies in the face of common sense. Eggs are almost pure protein. > Surely a hen's protein requirements are elevated during that time period. > Likewise for moulting. > Secondly, Roudybush did a study and concluded that the optimal protein > level for a breeding cockatiel is 20%. What study are you basing your > information on? Tom Roudybush's studies are often cited as gospel truth. However, one study is NOT a basket to put all of your eggs in :-). I had a pair of beautiful cockatiels die as a result of too high protein levels for too long a time. See Parrot World, I think May of this year for a contrary article dealing with elevated levels of uric acid in the kidneys of birds on 20% protein. Although a hen's protein requirements are elevated during moulting and breeding, it seems more common sensical to me to feed a lower protein level year round. Also, even if Roudybush was correct as to cockatiels, as we all know, what is good for one species is not necessarily good for all. Also, you will find that most studies that have been done have been done on a short term basis. NOTHING has been done over the lifetime of a psitacine, or even the lifetime of a cockatiel. There just are not the funds available to study cockatiels for a 15 year period. Sure, high protein makes the birds LOOK wonderful. My birds never looked better than when they were on dog food. But it is obvious that they were missing something, else they would have bred. > Most birds are suspicious of new foods. Many birds, if anything, would > prefer to eat the same thing, day-in day-out. I've seen lots and lots > of birds that will eat only one thing. Birds that need variety can > be given it as a supplement/treat. I'm far from convinced it's a must. > It's certainly lower on my priority list compared to serving a nutritious > diet. My birds are very different from your birds in that case. Yes, many birds are suspicious of new foods. Yes, many birds will only eat one thing. But also, given their druthers, many human children will also eat just one thing. That doesn't necessarily mean that one thing is good for them. And with birds, we just do not know enough about what is a nutritious diet and what is not. See the proceedings of the AAV for 1990. > >4) Birds NEED vitamin supplements. > I assume because some vitamins in the pellets lose their potency? > Which one's specifically. Overdosing of vitamins causes problems > just as bad as underfeeding. According to the Nekton people (and yes, I am aware they are out to make money with their vitamins, but so is Tom Roudybush), it is virtually impossible to overdose a bird on vitamins. Like humans, most vitamins are flushed through the system when they are not used. No pellets contain all the vitamins and minerals that birds need. > >The bottles eliminate the problems with parrots > >putting their food in the water and making a sludge. They also stop > >the cockatiels from using their water as a sewer. > > Yes, but I find that most of our birds will bathe daily if given > a place to do so, and also most of our cockatiels (and some others) > really like fresh water (out of the tap). Put two dishes in (both clean) > and one is straight from the tap, and they will choose that one every > time. Very true. If you can keep the bowls clean, and don't mind the extra work, good luck to you. I don't have time to do this with 70 birds. However, I always spray the birds down with a light mist every day which they enjoy and from which they get their bath. > My investment in pellets is not financial ... just that I think I'm > doing what's best for my birds. I am really interested in hearing > of any counter-pellet evidence I should be considering. We're all trying to do what is best for our birds. Learning from each other's failures and successes is a great way to do this. I do not believe that enough research has been done to dub pellets, or any other one food for that matter, to be nutritionally complete for psitacines. Therefore, I try to duplicate, as nearly as possible, the kind of diet they would get in the wild. Granted, not enough research has been done on what they eat in the wild, either. So I try to use a combination of common sense and what other breeders and vets have told me. That's how I came up with my food mixes. I can't tell you how my birds will be in 10 years, but I think that the fresh fruits and veggies, seeds and pellets, and vitamin and mineral supplements will give them everything they need. Mikki Barry --