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From: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Feminism, Inclusion, and the University
Message-ID: <658100145@lear.cs.duke.edu>
Date: 8 Nov 90 21:35:46 GMT
References: <89416@aerospace.AERO.ORG>
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In article <89416@aerospace.AERO.ORG> pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu (Sharon L. Pedersen) writes:

>Statistically I think these things are all much worse for women, and
>they would never have been noticed or begun to be acted on without
>women noticing them, but what kinds of different ways of thinking
>about these issues would we generate if we asked, "How can we make
>the university a more humane place for everyone?"  Suggestions?
........................................................................
>More cynically, might we not make more progress if we could sell
>solutions-to-discrimination to men as benefitting them as well, rather
>than setting up an "us against them" situation?  (Golly, maybe we
>could gain the support of all the "When you do it to me it's feminism;
>when I do it to you, it's discrimination" types.)

Long time ago another feminist asked this question.  I answered that
I didn't like affirmative action, but I would agree with affirmative action
by income level.  W.g. if you have several candidates with the same 
qualifications, pick the one with the *lowest* annual income.  

I still remember how the same feminists who shout "59 cents!"
rejected this very idea with zillion excuses...

(An exercise to the reader: if they earn less than a man with the 
same qualification, then why did they reject the idea?)

Anyway, the fact that before you ask your questions you start with:
"these things are all much worse for women" leaves me with a feeling
that you don't really want to replace your "solutions", just to put
them in a more attractive package.

If I'm wrong and you have something new to offer then please offer it,
if you just want to make the old programs look more attractive then *I*
am not interested.

>work with.  It's a terrible strain to be continually in a male world,
>in an environment that takes male experience as normative, and where
>female experience is almost nowhere to be seen.  And so I deliberately
>seek out other women academics, to lend balance to my life.

Sometime I will tell you something about my experiences in the US,
I will also tell you that the group in Usenet that has done most of 
the bashing against foreign students is soc.women...
 

Hillel                                                 gazit@cs.duke.edu

"The past cannot be changed, not even by Constitutional amendment." -- wharf rat