Path: utzoo!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!att!att!linac!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!julius.cs.uiuc.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Doctrine vs. the Bible Message-ID: Date: 9 Nov 90 05:18:23 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 134 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > This is the reason that the lives of the Christians will lack signs, >wonders, and miracles. The bible says that signs, wonders and miracles >will follow up WHEN the Word of God is preached... NOT church or >denominational doctrine. See the last chapter of Mark. > > In Jesus's Name, > Allen S. Cheung > (JESUS IS LORD) No Christian should question his faith or doubt his salvation simply because he does not see 'signs, wonders, and miracles.' God has always used these for a special purpose, to reveal his purpose and will to his believers. In Mark 16 we read [in a passage whose authenticity is questioned by some] that Jesus appeared to his remaining eleven chosen apostles and said: "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, *and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.* I believe that the signs promised by Jesus were promised to the apostles, to help them in establishing his church, both among the Jews and among the Gentiles -- who in particular had no knowledge of the Scriptures. In particular one can see that in some instances, signs were given to show the apostles that they were doing the right thing in preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, and not just to the Jews -- see in particulat Acts 10:44-48. Other signs were given to certify the apostles and evangelists to their audience. However Jesus adamantly refused to perform signs on demand, in order to prove himself. He said "They have Moses and the Prophets" , in other words, the Scriptures. He also told Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." My point is that we should rely on the Scriptures for revelation, and not look signs to buttress our faith. In Daniel 9:24 the work of the Messiah to come is described: "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for you people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, *to seal up vision and prophecy* and to anoint the most holy. While this particular vision is one of the more difficult passages in the Bible, I certainly understand it to mean that there was an end to 'vision and prophecy' in connection with Christ's work here on earth. As the vision appears to end with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD., we might guess that "vision and prophecy" was brought to an end about that time -- or we might say it ended with the writing of the last book of the New Testament. Doctrine itself is not a bad thing, according to Scripture. In Acts 3:42 we read that the early christians "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching [some translations read 'doctrine' here]. In 2 Tim 4:3 Paul warns Timothy: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine." In Titus 1:9 we read that an 'overseer' or 'bishop' must "hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." So 'sound doctrine' which is true, drawn from the Scriptures, is very much endorsed by Scripture. Those who despise 'doctrine' as if it were a man made thing invented by the churches, are actually opposed to Scripture. To say, as I have heard a good number of charismatics say, that 'we don't have any doctrine in our church, just the Bible' is a contradiction in terms. Doctrine is whatever you teach. Of course false doctrine is quite another matter, and is heartily condemned in Scripture. By virtue of my membership in a Lutheran Church (the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, to be specific) I confess that I believe that the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and the Lutheran Confessions contained in the Book of Concord, namely The (unaltered) Augsburg Confession The Apology to the Augsburg Confession The Smalcald Articles Melancthon's Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope Luther's Small and Large Catechism and The Formula of Concord are all correct interpretation of Scripure. They are true 'doctrine', drawn from the Scriptures. I will conclude with a brief note. The most important miracle of all, to be sought more than any other, is the miracle of conversion. For in conversion we see nothing less than the dead brought to life, by the power of the gospel. As we read in Ephesians chapter 2, as unbelievers we were 'dead in our transgressions and sins,' but are now 'made alive in Christ.' And we read in Revelation 20: "This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death [hell] has no power over them, but they will be priests of God [1 Peter 2:5] and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." May God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "The world is very evil, The times are waxing late; Be sober and keep vigil, The Judge is at the gate; The Judge that comes in mercy, The Judge that comes with might, To Terminate the evil, To diadem the right. O home of fadeless spendor, Of flow'rs that bear no thorn, Where they shall dwell as children Who here as exiles mourn. Midst pow'r that knows no limit, Where knowledge has no bound, The beatific vision Shall glad the saints around. O sweet and blessed country, The home of God'e elect! O sweet and blessed country That eager hearts expect! Jesus, in mercy bring us To that dear land of rest, Who art, with God the Father And Spirit, ever blest. --selected verses from "Hora novissima", by Bernard of Morlas, c. 1140. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.