Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: "... and upon this rock ..." Message-ID: Date: 10 Nov 90 13:33:57 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 80 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Re: Richard A. O'Keefe In article ok@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >In particular, it's worth noting that papal infallibility is a very >recent doctrine. Formerly, the idea was that an ecumenical council >could (by the grace of the Holy Spirit) discover what the truth was >about a particular matter (such as the Trinity). {"Petra", by the way, >can mean a large _detached_ rock, as the moderator says, it's hard to >wring much out of the Greek here.} Wasn't it the 19th century when >papal infallibility came in? Hi, Richard! Well... yes, and no. Yes, in the fact that "Papal Infallibility" was formally established (not quite "defined") as a *doctrine*... that which is taught. No, in the sense that Catholics believe that Papal Infallibility was ALWAYS the case, and that it was in 1870 (I *think* that was when Vatican I was held... can someone confirm or deny that? I misplaced my documentation... :( ) that this "truth" was *recognized* as being in need of formal, explicit declaration. Just as a note: "Papal Infallibility" is somewhat incomplete (No slam on you whatsoever, Richard... PLENTY of Catholics talk about it in the same way! :) ). The Church teaches (as clarified in Vatican II documents) that the ENTIRE body of Bishops is blessed with the ability to teach infallibly in matters of faith and morals; hence, the need for a consensus of Bishops for any assertion to be proclaimed infallible. In application, the Pope would not really be able to make such infallible proclamations with autonomy, though I suppose there is enough "legal wiggle-room" in the Vatican II documents to allow for it. It would be extremely awkward for the Pope to proclaim some statement, only to be discredited by the Bishops of the world (as would be the case of an obvious NON-infallible statement, such as a statement that went contrary to an explicit Law of God). (This might strike some as weird, that one would need a consensus to arrive at a Spirit-Given truth; one *possible* rationale is that the assembly of Bishops is not merely a democratic voting body, but a collection of believers who compare insights to make certain that personal thoughts are not intertwined in any given Bishop's assertions. As I say, I'm not fresh on the Vatican II justification of Bishop consensus... maybe someone (or I) can look into that...) The moderator adds: >[... While there's no question that the Pope's >powers have tended to grow over time, you can find quite early >statements (2nd Cent at least) that suggest a very special place for >Rome and its bishop in the Church. That's certainly true, though that may have been just fortunate happenstance (as far as Rome went; had Rome not been such a center of world affairs, a sort of Papacy might well have started in Jerusalem). Rome was influential in political and economic matters as well as religious matters (not so much Roman religion vs. Judeo-Christian religion, but influential in more indirect ways), and was therefore a likely candidate for religious focus. I merely wished to make the point that the Papacy's validity may not be solidly supported by any idea that Rome was endeared to the early Church. As an alternate possibility: it could have been that, in a world of more-or-less homogeneous political-economic influence, NO explicit center (other than God (including Jesus Christ, in the Christian case) might have formed. It's hard to tell. ---- Take care! Sincerely, Brian Coughlin oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu [Papal infallibility goes slightly beyond saying that the Pope presents the concensus of the bishops. ... "such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church". I agree that papal infallibility is based on the general concept of infallibility of the Church, but it presents this infallibility as being present through the Pope in a very special way. --clh]