Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark T. Sandrock) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: "Grail Message" (was Re: Creation) Message-ID: Date: 14 Nov 90 08:36:36 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 160 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu crf@tomato.princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) writes: >Mark, >Since you often end your articles with paragraphs like this, I find it >necessary to ask you the following crucial question: who exactly is >Abd-ru-shin, and why should you consider his teaching more important than >that of Jesus himself, and that of his immediate followers such as Paul, >Peter, and John? Please do not put words into my mouth nor "interpret" my words for me or for others. I have stated that the Grail Message explains and continues the Message of Jesus. This is not to say that it is "more important"! Neither is it to say that it is "less important". I do not expect people to take my word for this, that is why I try to emphasize that each one is free to examine the Grail Message objectively to form one's own opinion. As for the identity of Abd-ru-shin, this can be recognized by anyone who takes the time and effort to examine the Grail Message objectively. Those who cannot be objective would do best to just leave it alone. >I realize you've said that his teaching only explains the Bible, yet if >your postings are any measure, it seems to be much more akin to Eastern >religions (admittedly I'm no expert on these) than to the teachings of >the Bible. Phrases such as "Divine Source", "Creation of the Spiritual >Sphere", "karmic laws", etc., just aren't in the Bible, yet they are all >over the place in various Eastern religions. It sounds as though >the "Grail" writer is really trying to find a diplomatic way of saying, >"Yes, the Bible is true, but only where it agrees with me and my own >religion." (Which, if you think about it, isn't much of a compliment >to the Bible at all.) Again, you have not represented my words accurately. My words were that the Grail Message "only confirms what is good and right in the Bible". That is to say it does not reject what is good and true and right therein, but quite naturally can only confirm all that is good and true in the Bible. The Grail Message necessarily rejects that which is incorrect, both in the original recording, as well as in the subsequent interpretations. If there are those who do not wish to hear of any mistakes in the transmissions and the interpretations, then the Grail Message must not be meant for them! As far as phrases and concepts which are not found in the Bible, there are several answers to this. The main answer is this: That not everything could be spoken of by Jesus at that time! What is my basis for this assertion? Very simply the words of Jesus that: "There is much I would still say to you, but you would not understand. But when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will lead you into all the truth." Also, when Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "For we know in part. But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away with." I don't have the references at hand, but I believe the passages should not be hard to locate. I will provide the references if someone wishes me to. The second part of the answer is that we never even understood correctly all that was in the Scriptures! And now, today, it is possible for us to do so through the new knowledge given to mankind in the Grail Message. Going back to the example of Genesis, we assumed it referred to this earth, and now we find out that it doesn't. It refers to the original, spiritual Creation, and people only assumed otherwise. How do I know? How do we know anything is true? Because it *fits*. The various pieces all fit together to form a complete, understandable picture. Should we expect anything less from the Perfect Creator? No way! **************************************************************************** And this idea is at the core of the Grail Message: the absolute Perfection of the Creator and of His Creation. Everything else is built logically upon this unshakeable foundation. There are no gaps or uncertainties anywhere. **************************************************************************** It is hard for me to understand why a concept such as "Spiritual Sphere" would seem "foreign" to anyone who accepts the concept of *spirit*. Where else would *spirit* originate but in the *Spiritual Realm or Sphere*? Where was Jesus referring to when He spoke of "My Kingdom is not of this world."? There are not a lot of choices, my friends. Things are either material, or spiritual. Or in the case of God, they are Divine. Jesus had to speak in simpler terms, but He spoke exactly of the Spiritual Realm, Paradise, the Kingdom of Heaven. Today we are capable of understanding more than before. Or take the objection to "karmic law". We have the words of Jesus that say: "As a man sows, thus shall he reap." If someone else refers to this as the Law of Sowing and Reaping, or as karma, or as fate, isn't it still the same thing? Jesus could not say everything to people then, and He stated this fact for the record. Jesus spoke in such a way that the people of that time could understand His Message. It should not be surprising that a new teaching for mankind would have to use language and expressions which are more suited to the understanding of present-day mankind. The meaning is still the same, but we need more in-depth explanations than we previously could understand. Or take the concept of reincarnation, which has been much discussed before. Why not try to think about it and evaluate the concept on its own merits, instead of simply rejecting it as "unchristian" because it was not recorded that Jesus ever spoke of it? Because the fact is that reincarnation was a part of Church doctrine for hundreds of years after the life of Christ. The fact is that Jesus never denied the validity of the concept of reincarnation, which was widely believed at that time, nor did He deny it when the Disciples indicated their own belief in it ("Who had sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?") And once again, as always, we might do well to recall the words of Jesus that "There is much I would yet say to you, but you would not understand. ..." when deciding to reject ideas simply because Jesus never spoke of them. What were all these things that we "couldn't understand" then? And isn't it high time that we learned to understand them? The Grail Message can help us to do this. So how does one arrive at the truth? By objectively weighing and examining, and not otherwise! By thinking freely and independently, as we are meant to. And the Grail Message is there to help those who wish to do so. To me it is the most wonderful and most Christian teaching possible, and it is naturally something one wants whole-heartedly to share with others! >On a related note, I find it telling that you have cited the Grail Message >itself as authoritative, and not the Bible, or even "the Bible as understood >by the Grail Message writer". I know, there are problems with human >interpretations, but most human interpretations I know of can at least be >traced back to the Bible in an understandable way. This Grail Message, on >the other hand, seems completely foreign to the words of the Bible itself >and not just to "human interpretations" of it. No. Just because the Grail Message gives *deeper and fuller* explanations of every aspect of the World (Creation), including the Bible, this does not make it "completely foreign". Time and again the Grail Message calls to mind the words or actions of Jesus, and explains them fully to us. The only question to my mind is this: Are the explanations given in the Grail Message correct or not? And this question is best answered by each individual for himself, once he or she takes the time and effort to examine the Grail Message. I have answered that question for myself, and wish to give others the opportunity too. >I agree completely. So does Jesus: "You shall know the truth, and the truth >shall make you free." But then, Jesus also said, "I am the way, the truth, >and the life." And Paul clarified, "See to it that no one takes you captive >through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and >the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. For in Christ >all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given >fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority." >(Colossians 2:8-10) Once more I can only say, those who seriously seek a better understanding of the Mission and Message of Jesus, as well as all aspects of Creation, would do well to objectively examine "In the Light of Truth", the Grail Message, by Abd-ru-shin, as to the great value of the knowledge it mediates. The Grail Message comprises 168 lectures and more than 1000 pages of text, and is intended to be read step-by-step, from the beginning. Only in this way can one really grasp the vast knowledge which it does provide. The Grail Message can be found in many libraries across the U.S., as well as in other countries. The original language is German, but translations exist in English, French, Spanish, and other languages as well. Best regards, Mark Sandrock -- BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801