Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!julius.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!agate!ziploc!eps From: eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next Subject: Re: Next, 40, Sparc, 2 Message-ID: <1027@toaster.SFSU.EDU> Date: 20 Nov 90 01:16:01 GMT References: <11090@pt.cs.cmu.edu> <30017@boulder.Colorado.EDU> Reply-To: eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) Organization: San Francisco State University Lines: 76 In article <30017@boulder.Colorado.EDU> fozzard@alumni.colorado.edu (Richard Fozzard) writes: >[1] "Squeezing blood from the sparc turnip" >This statement would be better applied to the aging 68xxx CISC architecture, >not the deliberately *scalable* RISC SPARC design. Religious dogma. Ho-hum. >[2] "28.5 MIPS is not particularly meaningful" >that can take days - don't tell anyone around here that 28 MIPS isn't >meaningful. With all the people that have posted on this, I'm amazed at how you've completely missed the point--no one is disputing the value of faster CPUs--what's being shot down is the fiction that MIPS is some sort of meaningful physical measure. >[3] "and with a crapola interface" >Again, I must doubt that you've used OpenWindows. It is in many ways >superior (and in many ways inferior, too) to NeXTStep; hardly is it >"crapola". Above all, it will run on *anything* supporting X. (We have >used it on Macs, HPs, DECs, and (obviously) Suns across a huge network, >even across the country over the internet. So far, to my knowledge, anything >developed in NeXTStep will run only on (you guessed it) other NeXTs. *I've* used OpenWindows and agree that's it's crapola--it's also deathly slow--NextStep on a '030 cube compared to OpenWindows on a "screaming SPARC" that "wins every benchmark by several times" still provides vastly superior response time--I'd say NextStep is about an order of magnitude faster. And a lot more powerful. Let's recast this for the popular masses: "Microsoft Windows is in many ways superior ... to the Macintosh interface. After all, it will run on *anything* supporting MS-DOS. (We have used it on IBMs, Compaqs, Tandys ...) So far, to my knowledge, anything developed with the Macintosh toolbox will only run on (you guessed it) other Macintoshes." And yes, I've seen NextStep run on IBM RS/6000s. RISC machines. RISC machines that leave your Suns in the dust. So there. >[4] "and set-up gymnastics" >The only thing you're even part right about. The NeXT is plug-and-play >alright, as long as you've got a homogenous network of NeXTs. As the prez >of the local NUG (also a full-time Sun/UNIX/network guru for the university) >found out when he tried to hook up my demo machine to an NFS network here, >those set up gymnastics can be as bad as any other UNIX machine. And even >if he had had the time to succeed hooking it up, all we could have done was >share files. Forget about any application interoperability. I helped set up a workshop in February where we connected Suns and NeXTs for the first time. It took about *5* minutes to get the whole thing working--and that's not just NFS. We also set things up so the Suns could print to a NeXT, since NeXTs come with TRANSCRIPT, and Suns... well, Sun wanted another $1800. (This was also right after I finished porting MazeWar to the NeXT, and, needless to say, a rather dramatic example of just how well these "dissimilar" platforms would work together.) We spent some time tweaking the printer some more, but not a whole lot. In my experience it's always been harder to set up Suns than NeXTs, and there's a lot more that seems to go wrong on the Suns (especially with YP/NIS, yecch). When the Color NeXT products start shipping in quantity, and we can start doing our must-have-color work on them, Suns are going to look a lot less attractive. Most of our users really don't care WHICH window system is running as long as they can get their work done. They don't want X for the NeXT, they want good molecular modeling software, etc. Where are PV-Wave and Biograf? I seriously doubt they'd be that difficult to port. Get on those vendors... -=EPS=-