Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: walsh@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Validity of Baptism (Was Re: In Communion with Rome?) Message-ID: Date: 17 Nov 90 05:12:23 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 45 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com writes: > Some comments on Donatism and sacramental intent. > > > I remember reading someone who expressed the opinion that the Vatican II > liturgical changes may bring about invalid Masses because they have > weakened the expression of the intent of the Mass significantly. It is > a problem when a priest thinks of the Mass as a meal but not the > Sacrifice of Calvary. I wouldn't venture to say exactly when such a > priest stops saying Mass, but eventually a point must be reached, it > would seem to me, because at some point his Faith will be gone, and > he'll be thinking totally in terms of bread and wine, and not the Body > and Blood. > > Joe Buehler i am no expert on RC theology, but the problem remains: if intention on the part of the priest or bishop is part of any sacrament, you'll never really know for sure whether that sacrament was effective. what, if during one of the low points of the Roman church there was an unbelieving Pope. Without the proper intention, all the priests or bishops he ordained would be bogus. This leads to a horrible mess in the drawing the boundries and limits of your church. strikes me as Roman legalism run amuck. it reminds me of the story of the nuns in California who made communion wafers out of rice flour because they came out whiter. when the local bishop found out, the priests of the diocese had to do a couple hundred masses all over again because without wheat, the mass doesn't work. as for your Vacuum II comments, i think they are right to the point. the basic tenets of Catholic faith seem to be up for grab (at least in the US -- i understand the wreckage hasn't been so great in other countries). If you compare vital belief (such as the nature of the Mass) both before and after VatII, you find a lost continuity, which brings in doubt the very nature of the Roman Church, which maintains that it is the guardian of the "unchanging" truths of Christianity. ando. [Weren't you the one that was arguing that someone who is not orthodox is outside the Christian faith and his sacraments are invalid? Perhaps Joe's correct intention is different from your orthodoxy, but it seems to me that they are closely related. --clh]