Path: utzoo!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!att!att!linac!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Help me understand these Scriptures Message-ID: Date: 17 Nov 90 04:52:08 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 125 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Our moderator writes: > >The question is how one person can be properly regarded as both man >and God. In effect you say that we need not understand it but should >accept it as an article of faith. This position, like your attack on >me for not explaining every technical point of theology at once, is >going to make intelligent responses to people outside the orthodox >tradition nearly impossible. Furthermore, it opens us into directly >to the attack that these doctrines are completely abstract and >un-Biblical, and supports the suspicion of many Christians that if we >can't give some at least halfway satisfactory explanation of what we >mean by two natures united in one person, the doctrine probably has no >meaning at all. I believe we have to be willing to say something >beyond a simple repetition of the words of the creeds, and that my >obligation to talk to people like Steve is worth the risk that almost >anything I say is going to look like heresy to somebody. Frankly, I would prefer to concentrate on what the scriptures say, particularly with regard to the Jehovah's Witnesses. I am glad, however, that you explained yourself with more precision. I also believe it is important to give Christian witness to the Witnesses, and have expended considerable effort in doing so in my other articles, and in my e-mail correspondence with Steve. Unfortunately we are all constrained in our time, and the need for brevity on this network. In my article, I referred to 1 Tim 3:16: "Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory." Note that some manuscripts have 'God' instead of 'He'. This is particularly good for the Jehovah's Witnesses, because they hate the word 'mystery'; they insist on rationalizing everything in scripture. Hence they end up reasoning that Jesus is not God. The simplest answer to Steve's question regarding the Scriptures in which Jesus refers to 'my God', is that as a true man, here on earth and after his resurrection and after his ascenscion, Christ was subject to God. Particularly as a man here on earth, Christ obeyed the Law on our behalf. The Jehovah's Witnesses have such a strange and bizarre understanding of Christ's incarnation and resurrection, however, that for the ascended Jesus to speak of 'my God' means that he cannot be God, for them. For they believe that his resurrection was actually a re-creation. For them his incarnation means that the archangel Michael went out of existence and was born on earth as a man. The incarnated Christ and the ascended Christ are two different beings, and the ascended one is certainly not a man. But if that is the case, what hope have we of a resurrection? What do I care, if I go out of existence and God creates a new 'me' that has no connection with my earthly existence? But Job said: "I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes -- I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" --Job 19:25-29 We have no quarrel with the Witnesses that Christ is a man. They seem to have a problem believing that he is still a man. This despite the fact that the Scriptures say that there *is*, not *was* one mediator between God and men, the *man* Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5). He had a body when he rose from the dead, and that body was seen ascending into heaven. He even made a point of eating something after his resurrection, to show he had a body. But the main thing we need to do is to show the Witnesses that Christ is also God, and that their salvation depends on this. We need to show this from the Scriptures. First, because the Scriptures are the Word of God and the means by which the Spirit works faith. Secondly, because the gospel is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes. (Rom 1:16) Thirdly, because the Witnesses take false pride in standing on their false interpretation of Scripture. By the way, I really appreciated Gene Gross's article. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. "Ach Herr, lass dein lieb Engelein Am letzen End die Seele mein In Abrahams Schoss tragen, Den Leib in sein'm Schlafkaemmerlein Gar sanft, ohn ein'ge Qual und Pein, Ruhn bis am Juengsten Tage! Alsdenn vom Tod erwecke mich, Dass meine Augen sehen dich In aller Freud, O Gottes Sohn, Mein Heiland und Genadenthron! Herr Jesu Christ, erhoere mich! Erhoere mich! Ich will dich preisen ewiglich!" --v. 3 of Herzlich lieb hab' ich dich, o Herr) by Martin Schalling, 1567 --used by J. S. Bach as the last chorus of his St. John Passion auf Englisch: Lord, let at last Thine angels come, To Abram's bosom bear me home, That I may die unfearing; And in its narrow chamber keep My body safe in peaceful sleep Until Thy reappearing. And then from death awaken me That these mine eyes with joy may see, O Son of God, Thy glorious face, My Savior and my Fount of grace. Lord Jesus Christ, My prayer attend, my prayer attend, And I will praise Thee without end. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.