Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Validity of Baptism (Was Re: In Communion with Rome?) Message-ID: Date: 21 Nov 90 06:02:39 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: AT&T Bell Labs (Liberty Corner) Lines: 87 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu ando wrote: i am no expert on RC theology, but the problem remains: if intention on the part of the priest or bishop is part of any sacrament, you'll never really know for sure whether that sacrament was effective. If you mean with the certainty of Faith, of course not. There are very few things you can know with *that* certainty. The doctrine on intention is just common sense, really. Suppose I have a motion picture in which people are baptized. Are they really baptized? If they are, then you can only shoot the scene once, because knowingly rebaptising someone is mortal sin. You might not even be able to shoot the scene at all, unless you can find some non-Christians to baptize! what, if during one of the low points of the Roman church there was an unbelieving Pope. Without the proper intention, all the priests or bishops he ordained would be bogus. This leads to a horrible mess in the drawing the boundries and limits of your church. strikes me as Roman legalism run amuck. There have been some real swine on the Papal throne, no question. There was one pope who toasted the Devil! I think you would be hard put to find one who was an unbeliever, though. It isn't hard to have the proper intention. Basically, you have to intend to do what the Church does. Intention to do what the Church does is presumed unless you do things like significantly alter the matter and/or form of the Sacrament with the obvious intent of denying Catholic doctrine. This requires a more detailed treatment than I am competent to give, so please refer to something like the Catholic Encyclopedia if you want to really understand this. In the final analysis, the passing on of Holy Orders is under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, so the Church isn't about to lose its Holy Orders. it reminds me of the story of the nuns in California who made communion wafers out of rice flour because they came out whiter. when the local bishop found out, the priests of the diocese had to do a couple hundred masses all over again because without wheat, the mass doesn't work. I hope that's just a story. But worse things than that have happened in the last 25 years! as for your Vacuum II comments, i think they are right to the point. the basic tenets of Catholic faith seem to be up for grab (at least in the US -- i understand the wreckage hasn't been so great in other countries). If you compare vital belief (such as the nature of the Mass) both before and after VatII, you find a lost continuity, which brings in doubt the very nature of the Roman Church, which maintains that it is the guardian of the "unchanging" truths of Christianity. There's no question that there has been mass apostasy on a world-wide scale. And I do mean apostasy. If I had the opportunity to talk to some bishops, I would first ask them whether they even believe in God! That doesn't say anything about the nature of the Church, though. Whole nations have been cut off from the Church in the past, and no doubt will be in the future. Should the American bishops decide to go that route, I wouldn't be particularly surprised. Our Lord Himself put it this way: When the Son of Man comes will He find Faith on the earth? The standard Catholic doctrine of the last times, which is basically an interpretation of the New Testament going back at least to the Fathers of the Church, includes mass apostasy on the part of Christians. Just before the Jews convert, and all the rest. We've argued about the issues involved here before. What is the Catholic religion? Is it what your parish priest says it is? Is it what you think it is? Is it what Hans Kueng thinks it is? Is it what the American bishops say it is? Most Catholics don't know how to answer such questions, because they are VERY ignorant of their religion. It's a pity, too, because it's culpable ignorance in many cases. You might expect ignorance in a society where people are struggling to survive. But in America, where we have the easy life, Catholic libraries everywhere, plenty of free time? "Wisdom does not abound in the land of delights." Joe Buehler