Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jow@pacbell.com (Jeff Westman) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Holiness Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 90 07:23:10 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA Lines: 96 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: | ... We have | no right to ask for visions from God. We also have no right to ask for | voices to guide us. Since the Holy Spirit resides in these new reborn | spirits, supernatural guidance should come from within us. It shouldn't | come from outer voices or visions of Mary because the world is where Satan | operates. ... Allen, I have a real problem with the way you have worded this, so maybe some clarification would be in order. You talk about "reborn spirits" as if our spirit was just flying in the cosmos, waiting for a body of a newborn to inhabit (sounds like some Eastern thought, huh?). The part about "super- natural guidance coming from inside us" ..... What do you mean *FROM* us. If you mean it should ORIGINATE from us, then I would question this. We are human, prone to sin. Just like the favorite Hymn, 'prone to wonder, prone to leave the One I love'. Allen, we're sinful creatures, although forgiven ones. While the Holy Spirit lives in us, we have to be careful "whose voice" we are listening to. It may not be your own... It may not be God's ... Satan is powerful. He is an angel in light; he is also super- natural (be careful in who you are listening to!). | Your spirit will not tell you to do something wrong nor will it tell | you to do something out of line with God's Word. "Whosoever is born of God | doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, | because he is born of God."-1 John 4:9 This is speaking about the heart. Allen, the implication is that if you are a true, trusting, following believer then you cannot *CONTINUE* to fall into sin as in your prior life without Christ. Remember that God sees us through His Son Jesus. Since your in 1 John, flip over a few pages to the left. Look at chapter 1, verse 7: "But if we walk [daily walk] in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all [every] sin" Now verse 8: "[But] if we claim to be WITHOUT sin, we DECEIVE ourselves and the truth is not in us..." Verse 10: "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place i our lives" (NIV, emphasis mine) Remember that John wrote this to BELIEVERS (see 2:1). I.E.: BELIEVERS CAN AND DO SIN. Now go a few pages to the right, chapter 5. Look at verses 18 and 19: "We know that anyone born of God does not CONTINUE to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (NIV, emphasis mine) What about Romans 8:9: Paul, talking with the Romans and contrasting the two natures, said "You, however, are controlled NOT by the sinful nature [implies that we STILL have one] but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of GOD lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (NIV, emphasis mine) Lastly, compare James 1:13 and following: "When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his OWN evil desire, he is *dragged off* and enticed. Then, after desire [which originates in the mind] has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." (NIV, emphasis mine) You see, Christians DO sin. It's the matter of a continuing a practice of sin that is not glorifying to God that demonstrates our lack of commitment to our faith. | ... If you can't tell whether | your heart weeps or not when you sin then you are either backslidden or | YOU ARE NOT SAVED. Okay, here's a question for you. Suppose that I'm in a certain situation and I am contemplating if I *want* to sin or not; whether I want to glorify God and turn away from a sinful situation, or temporarily please myself. Now, suppose I fall into the temptation. And I sin. Does this mean that I am NOT saved? Maybe you mean 'backslidden' -- for an hour or two (if the latter is the case, then I suppose ALL Christians "backslide" almost daily!) | (Jesus is Lord) Always was, and ALWAYS will be (emphasis... mine) -- Jeff