Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: cadence!stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Message-ID: Date: 23 Nov 90 09:49:45 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 123 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes: > As I understand it, you believe that Jesus ransomed us from sin, or at >least from Adam's sin, by performing a 'perfect human sacrifice'. (I get this >more from the JW literature than from your article, I might add.) However >Scripture says in Psalm 49:7 |"No man can redeem the life of another | or give to God a ransom for him -- |the ransom for a life is costly, | no payment is ever enough-- |that he should live on forever | and not see decay." | |So if Christ's sacrifice is *only* a human sacrifice, as you say, |then I fear that you are still in your sins, and must be thrown into |the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, at the day of |judgement. (Matt. 26:41). Hello David, I wanted to get back to you on your original questions. I first wanted to find out if it was my imagination or do I sense some hostility towards Jehovah's Witnesses? I notice you using some rather harsh words towards us and me in particular. I wanted to find out if we were continuing our conversation with a spirit of mildness or not. Whether anyone is going to suffer destruction is a matter between Jehovah and that individual. We all need to be careful in making judgemental statements related to who will enjoy salvation and who will not. Right? We both agree that Jesus was different than most men. None of us are without sin. But Jesus was. He existed in heaven before his life was transferred to the womb of Mary. He had no earthly father, so he didn't inherit Adamic sin. His Father was Almighty God Himself, Jehovah. The Scripture as Psa 49:7 is very true, and I agree with it. No normal man could redeem the life of another. It would take something more. Is Jesus just another man? No, He was different than any other. He was the perfect Son of God, without sin. So often people feel that Jehovah's Witness "don't believe in Jesus". The Scriptures are clear that Jesus was an extremely important individual and all of our salvation is based upon our faith in the value of his ransom sacrifice. The point that you and I don't agree on at this point is just how high was Jesus' "rank". You feel that he is Almighty God, or some part of God, as part of this Trinity. I believe that the Scriptures indicate that he is in actually 2nd in command, a seperate spirit creature who worships and serves the Almighty God Jehovah. Both of us agree that any human sacrifice wouldn't suffice, it takes something *much* more. We just don't agree on how much more. |But thanks be to God, "In Christ all the |fullness of the deity lives in bodily form," and as God and man he |died on the cross for all of your sins, and all the sins of every sinner |that was or is or will be -- including Adam. Here you are quoting Col 2:9, The King James reads: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [Greek, theotetos] bodily." (A similar thought is conveyed by the renderings in the NE, RS, JB, NAB, and Dy). However, other translations use the words "divine quality", "God's nature", instead of the word "Godhead"(NWT, AT, We, and CKW). It is very interesting to compare this with the Scripture at 2Pe 1:4 which reads: "Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in the *divine nature*, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust." Admittedly, not everyone offers the same interpretation of Col. 2:9. But what is in agreement with the rest of the inspired letter to the Colosians? Did Christ have in himself something that is his becuase he is God, part of a Trinity? Or is "the fullness" that dwells in him something that became his because of the decision of someone else? Col. 1:19 (KJ, Dy) say that all fullness dwelt in Christ because it "pleased the Father" for that to be the case NE says it was "by God's own choice" Consider the immediate context of Col. 2:9: In verse 8, readers are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human traditions. They are also told that in Christ "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knnowledge" and are urged to "live in him" and to be "rooted and built up in him and established in the faith." (Verses 3,6,7) It is in him, and not in the originators of the teachers of human philosophy, that a certain precious "fullnes" dwells. Was the apostle Paul there saying that the "fulness" that was in Christ made Christ God himself? NOt according to Col. 3:1, where Christ is said to be "seated at the right hand of" *WHO*? *God*, not the Father. I always find it interesting that Jesus can stand in relation to God, but we don't ever hear of the Father standing in relation to God. If you like to look at the original language.... According to Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon, "theotes" (the nominative form, form which theotetos is derived) means "divinity, divine nature." (Oxford, 1968, page. 792) Being truly "divinity" or of "divine nature," doesn't make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, and more that the fact that all humans share "humanity" or "human nature" makes them coequal or all the same age. |On the cross he cried, |"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me," showing that he suffered |separation from his Father in punishment for all the sins of the world. |So he lived and died as one of us, as our substitute, fulfilling the Law's |demands for perfect holiness and obedience, and he also died as God, giving |his sacrifice infinite value. I love this, you have God [Jesus] calling out to God that he has forsaken himself. It would be better for your argument if Jesus was calling out to his Father, but the verse says he is calling out to *his* God. I also enjoy you pointing that: |..................he also died as God.............. Seems to me that there is a Scripture that says that "God doesn't die". I'll get out my concordance if you call me on this(I am typing this without my reference materials) |It is interesting to note that Romans 10:9 says that God raised Jesus, |but in John 2:19 Jesus said: "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it |again in three days." | |So if Jesus is not God, how could he raise himself from the dead? I'll be glad to respond to this in my next post. I won't forget..... Best Regards...... Steve Peterson ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep