Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!crdgw1!greenba From: greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy Subject: Re: Testing Intelligence (Re: Turing Test). Message-ID: Date: 30 Nov 90 20:49:38 GMT References: <4832@gara.une.oz.au> <1990Nov30.180650.26648@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@crdgw1.crd.ge.com Organization: GE Corporate Research & Development Lines: 46 In-reply-to: cpshelley@violet.uwaterloo.ca's message of 30 Nov 90 18:06:50 GMT In article <1990Nov30.180650.26648@watdragon.waterloo.edu> cpshelley@violet.uwaterloo.ca (cameron shelley) writes: In article greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes: > ... >reasoning and self awareness in any >non-trivial senses require language. > How do you figure that? Do you mean a mental language? If so, what do you consider 'mentalese' to be like? No, not a mental language. An actual, socially derived language. What is reasoning without talking to oneself, or actually writing to oneself? We do this all the time when reasoning with tough problems. Now cats can solve tough problems, but there is no way to classify their performance as reasoning beyond just the statement that they solve the problems. When we humans reason, we clearly use language. Self awareness is more subtle and perhaps here I am relying on an unpopular position that self awareness is learned by interacting with other people. This is not really as strange as it may seem. Haven't you often heard therapists say that a large part of their task is to help the client "get in touch with his feelings"? Especially men who don't talk much about their feelings, or realize that they have them. The therapy is talking and probing with questions, which requires language. In another context, how do we teach children to be self aware? It seems natural to me to say that children see colored objects without necessarily seeing colors, as such, before we teach them to name their colors. It is an even greater achievement for them to see that they are seeing. We ask "Do you see that bird?" (a probing question like what is described between the therapist and the client) The pressure of the question in the circumstance leads the child to recognize that, yes, he is seeing something. These are not ideas original with me, but the source is certainly out of fashion nowadays. Someday ... -- Ben A. Green, Jr. greenba@crd.ge.com Speaking only for myself, of course.