Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero!huebner From: huebner@aero.aero.org (Robert E. Huebner) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: A3000UX competition Keywords: Unix A3000 A3000UX NeXT Message-ID: <93075@aerospace.AERO.ORG> Date: 30 Nov 90 22:37:49 GMT References: <453@mathlab.math.ufl.EDU> Sender: news@aerospace.aero.org Reply-To: huebner@aero.aero.org (Robert E. Huebner) Followup-To: alt.religion.computers Organization: The Aerospace Corporation Lines: 151 I've remained stoic about this continually invading thread by my patience is wearing thin. My analyst suggested a scathing reply would cleanse my psyche :) In article <453@mathlab.math.ufl.EDU>, adin@Math.UFL.EDU (Adin Burroughs) writes: |> The local Unix & NeXT Guru's reply to my forward him the previous msg.-- |> (Brian is the local Guru, Randy is the local sysadmin.) Of course, we all know "NeXT Guru" is synonymous with "Computer Geek" |> Hmmm. Ballpark competitive, maybe. Here are some comments about |> the competition you are facing: |> |> |> Commodore offering: |> |> I personally wouldn't want to subject myself to Sys V again, but R4 is |> supposed to be signifigantly better. Not to mention Standard. I mean, the whole idea behind SVR4 is to bring the AT&T and BSD deviations back together. It is really the only option, I feel. |> If you don't like Open Look (from what I have seen Randy show me of |> it, I don't much), you can replace it with parts of the MIT |> distribution. You can get X stuff from Randy, but you will spend time |> porting it. Of course, since Open Look is leading the pack in terms of available applications, I don't think this would be too wise. |> I would worry about a vendor that called the full man pages an extra. |> At that rate, the C compiler (and the text processing tools, and the |> networking software, and the networking hardware) is an extra. SCO |> did this shit with the XENIX on the PC's, too. I don't know what this means. Every A3000UX setup I've seen or have seen "advertised" includes these things. I think they're just trying to be specific about what is included. They way MS-DOS platforms are being sold these day (ie: no parallel port, etc) it pays to be specific! |> 4 Meg of core is a rediculous on a workstation now, just as the 3/50's |> are. However, you can get cheap third-party memory. I would worry |> about a UNIX vendor that tried to sell me a 4 Meg workstation. Just |> how bad is the performance? What CPU/clock-speed are we talking here? Commodore's philosophy has always been to sell the minimum and let the user upgraade. I'd rather purchase it with 4Meg so I can get the best price on the memory. If the memory comes installed you're sure to pay more than market value (look at the recent debate re:A3000-25/50 and 25/100) Also the A3000 has a fast hard disk (especially when compared to the dreaded floptical drive) which make an excellent swap space. (Does the A3000UX use DMA? I'm not sure of this one) |> |> What kind of monitor is that? How big is it? Can it compete in |> resolution with a Sun? A NeXT? I would prefer high-res mono to |> low-res color, as that allows me much more text on the screen. Recent specs released regarding this A2410 would certainly indicate that it can compete. 1024 x 1024 x 256 is definitely workstation quality. Granted, this is at additonal cost (Better multisync monitor + card price) but I expect it to be less expensive than the NeXT color option. Of course hires mono is available from both Commodore and some other company (Viking?) Not sure how Unix/X support these, but it would seem logical the the Commodore product at least was fully supported. |> Anything less than 300 meg is too small, add $500 for a bigger drive. If you sink another $500 into the 200 Meg price you would have about 400-500 Meg online. Who needs this much? Maybe a developer but.... |> Price: $4,999 + $500 = $5,499. Are there educations discounts to cut |> this any? Don't know yet. Commodore has offered Edu discounts on everything else. I'm not sure if $4,999 is correct price or not. Commdore won't say and no one know where Byte got their numbers (except Byte) |> |> NeXT offering: |> |> 8 Meg + 105 Meg NeXTStation. You've heard me yap about it. Better |> video than either of these (resolution-wise). 200 Megs of bundled |> software that neither of these can touch. $3,500. Add $750 for What so special about the bundled software? Half of it is PD or developer- oriented stuff (so is every NeXT buyer a NeXT developer?) and the other stuff is only useful to maybe 10% of people who use computers (Mathematica is strictly for math mutants, sorry). Improv sounds nice, but do I really need a NeXT to run a spreadsheet? And to get that, I have to plop down good money within 1 month. I certainly won't see my machine until 1991. Does NeXT still include the on-line dictionary and encyclopedia? I always thought this was sort of "filler" - to make it look like the NeXT had gobs of software, throw in some really BIG databases. |> bigger drive to put bundle on. Yes, you can get X for it, but why |> would you want to? Because X is a supported standard and there are about 3 times as many Open Look applications as NeXT (source - Application Watch from PC Week Mag) |> Brian's opinionated conclusion: |> |> I fault the Commodore for non-BSDness, but then again I fault HP's and |> Ardent's too. I personally wouldn't go back to it. Commodore as a |> workstation vendor gets a vote of "no confidence...yet. Try one more |> time" for their strategies of 4 Meg and broken-up OS. In another |> iteration, this will be a reasonable package for someone who wants |> Amiga backward-compatibility bad enough to pay for it. DO YOU really |> want it that bad? Instead of (a) keeping your Amiga to do Amiga |> things, and (b) getting a workstation to do workstation things? That I wouldn't call it backward compatability. I think AmigaDOS has more to offer than most UNIX/X applications. Especially in graphics and video areas. A machine that only runs X-Windows/UNIX would be a real bore. |> is the choice I am making with my PC. I am keeping my PC, but getting |> a separate workstation. NOT getting a 386 or 486 PC. Equally opinionated reply: Your arguments of non-BSDness and Broken-up OS completely fall apart. I It sounds like (re:Unix SVR4) that you are criticizing a system you haven't even seen in operation yet. Also, I haven't heard of any A3000UX system sold or desribed that didn't include the entire SVR4 stuff including man pages and gnu stuff (and it has "hack") :) Their 4 Megabyte entry level system is great for people who don't need that much memory to begin with. I also like that the Amiga can run standard Unix binaries. However, I had heard next user have had good luck in converting a.out to MACH, so perhaps this doesn't detract from the NeXT. It certainly doesn't help! But mainly, I've been waiting too long for the Amiga to start getting the kind of good software and support that finally seems to be arriving. I certainly don't want to jump ship now. The NeXT has very few NeXT-specific applications available and I don't think this will be improving too quickly. It sounds as if all the third-party support gained up to this point was purchased rather than earned. Oh well, enough of this. I can now put this thread in my kill file with a clear conscience. ---- Robert Huebner huebner@aerospace.aero.org The Aerospace Corporation, Computer Security Dept. "Take it to alt.religion.computers!" ----