Path: utzoo!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!att!linac!uwm.edu!rpi!julius.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!agate!ucbvax!LSUVM.BITNET!$CSD211 From: $CSD211@LSUVM.BITNET (Mark Orr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Building a NEW computer Message-ID: <9011290659.AA18312@apple.com> Date: 29 Nov 90 06:38:30 GMT References: Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Organization: The Internet Lines: 110 |I've been thinking about this for quite some time now. So..... |Lots of people have been talking about fixing the GS. Why should we stop |there?! Why do we need to build a GS clone?! We know what philosophy this |computer should embody - the things we like about the Apple II family, and |don't like about the others. I'm talking real big here, but let's build for |the future! Let's build the ultimate (I wanted to say next, but I can't :-) |ersonal computer. I had in mind something powerful, with the home environment |in mind, but there's no reason why this work can't be applied to other |environments. I think that building an Apple II for the future is a great idea. Any computer we designed would have to conform to what we have come to expect from II's (i.e. great expansion possibilities, built in BASIC, a ROM based system monitor and in general a great deal of flexibility) I would direct you to Todd Whitesel Apple IIf paper as a start. But take it with a grain of salt. It seem to be written from the perspective of "what is a realistic interpolation of what Apple could do with the II?" It contains many exceptional ideas but, as I have said, I don't think it goes far enough (i.e. it would please Apple II users to no end...but how would it attract new users) Certainly I think that we need a new processor. The 6502/65816 has clearly had its day. Some people (on this net) are waiting for the ASIC 65816 clone which may run at up to 25 MHz. With a cache, and without the IIgs's bottlenecks, this could provide a dramatic speedup for the II. But let's take a look at some solid facts: (1) The ASIC does no yet exist. And with the recent events involving the Duet (i.e. hardware and software supporters jumping ship),it may never exist. (2) With a cache, the ASIC will, at best, turn 2 MIPS...probably lower. (3) The ASIC, like all other chips - the manufacturer wanting to recoup the R&D, will not be cheap for a while. (4) Thirty-two bit processors capable of much higher performance than the ASIC are available NOW. I have mentioned the AMD 29000 RISC, the VLSI VL86C020 (the ARM - another RISC). Both these are powerful, inexpensive processors (used mainly in embedded applications). Let me add the Inmos T400, the highest performance to cost ratio chip available. The T400 can do 20 MIPS and costs about $20 (of course it does require a cache, so the actual cost is higher. But remember, the ASIC would need a cache too to achieve maximum performance. the T400 is also an embedded RISC processor. (5) A thirty-two bit RISC chip has about 1000 times the marketing value of a 65816 (which enough people know has an 8-bit data bus with a sixteen bit architecture). Look at the trade papers...everyone is saying that the '286 is dead. In what state of conciousness is the 65816 (6) The processors I have mentioned have wider address buses than the 65816. Not only does this mean that more memory may be added (right this is not a factor, since you can get far more memory than you need for the IIgs), but one can map more peripherals to that address space. What say we choose the AMD for our main processor and use the new FutureBus+ (IEEE 896.1), now we have an industrial strength bus that developers will flock to, and it's mapped in its full glory on the address bus. (BTW, FutureBus+ not only has a smokin' name (market wise), but can transfer at over 100 Mb/s) Add to this Super-VGA level graphics (which we can animate like lightning), and an Ensoniq (or two :-) ). We can use a 65816 on the motherboard to handle the I/O (and emulate the gs). We use UNIX as our operating system and X-Windows as our windowing environment. Add to this Direct Slots, which allow full access to the CPUs, video and sound hardware (for that extra measure of cleverness). Like Apple IIs of the past (and taking into account the mistakes of Steve Jobs) we don't want to build everyting in, even if we do have all those slots. I/O should include serial ports, MIDI, SCSI, and inputs for keyboard, mouse and two joystick (we will lose ADB naturally) A full implementation of MIDI should be on the board because the MIDI adapters that attach to the gs's serial ports are not a full MIDI set. A full MIDI set would include MIDI in, MIDI out, MIDI thru, and fourth port (which I cannot remember). There are compelling reasons for NOT including SCSI, like leaving room for third parties like CVTech to build a high speed SCSI (or SCSI-2) card. But since were using UNIX, we'll probably need it. GS compatibility would be maintained in a manner similar to the UNIX //e emulators, except with hardware support...this way we needn't copy or rebuild the GS ROMs...just provide a hardware interface for it. The RISC would still be used to handle video and sound and to run the software-interface. Todd Whitesel expressed the valid concern that, with the addition of the RISC, the GS side would become less important. In time, I hope it would. It would take time for applications to be developed. Users would still use GS software to start. |1. HDTV. It will be here soon. What are its specifications? (I think it's | better than most current computer resolutions, but I'm not sure). But I | don't just want to have the resolution of HDTV, I want to interface with it. | I'm not quite sure yet what I mean by interface, but let your imagination | roam. Take your favorite SF stories..... Problem...HDTV is yet to be defined in the USA (as far as i've heard). Besides VGA and Super-VGA level resolutions are higher than HDTV (1148x524 I think). Video overlay cards could be built for FutureBus+ by third parties. We don't want to build everything in. Just what is considered a competitive standard (i.e. resolution, sound, I/O) plus the high performance bus and CPU. |-seth | - tHe mAd ScienTisT, and other carnations |------------------------ |sk2f@andrew.cmu.edu | everything seems so easy this way but I'm going under |tmSatCMU@DRYCAS.BITNET | fast, I'm slipping away, am I so crazy - Marillion ---------------------------------- | MARK A. ORR | | $CSD211 @ LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU | | @ LSUVM.BITNET | ----------------------------------