Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!das
From: das@Apple.COM (David Shayer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: The New Macs: Greedy Compromises?
Message-ID: <46966@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 30 Nov 90 02:01:46 GMT
References: <1990Nov29.203507.25984@grape.ecs.clarkson.edu>
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
Lines: 128

In article <1990Nov29.203507.25984@grape.ecs.clarkson.edu> anthonjw@clutx.clarkson.edu (Jason W. Anthony) writes:
>* "OK the LC has at 68020 so that puts it in line with Mac II power, but
>oh, is has 16-bit pathway instead of 32-but, but it does has 32-bit to
>the ROM."
The CPU spends a large percentage of time executing code out of ROM,
so it has a wider path to the ROM.  It has a 16 bit path to RAM to
save a little money.  Believe it or not, you run out of room for
traces on a PC board, and either you have to make a bigger board
(which costs more for the board material and the bigger case to hold
it) or you cut out some traces.  

Anyway, why do you care?  The user has no clue how wide the data path is,
in fact the programmer doesn't even know how wide the data path is.  The
processor just gets the right bits for them.


>* "And "The IIsi comes with 2 meg and has color, but unlike
>the other machines, it uses main memory for video, so you loose up to
>320K for 256 colors.  So 2 meg on a IIsi isn't like 2 Meg on another machine.
What do you mean unlike other machines?  I'm writing this on a IIci,
which uses main memory for the on board video.


>* "Then the IIsi is very fast and has color, but Mac II machines with
seperate
>NuBus video cards do graphics faster because they have their own memory."
What a bunch of crap.  Have you done any benchmarks?
Graphics go faster with on board video, not Nubus video, because the
processor can access the video RAM directly, instead of going through
the 10MHz Nubus controller.

Anyway, if you feel that way, you can put a seperate viedo card in,
and not use the on board viedo.


>* "To get a numeric coprocessor for the IIsi you have to buy an adapter
>card.  Either one which allows you to connect a NuBus card, or one that
>allows you to connect an SE/30 board.  The LC has no Numeric Coprocessor
>option, unless someone comes out with one on an expansion card.  The Classic
>doesn't have one, as expected."
Motorola doesn't make an FPU for the 68000.  Why don't you complain
to them?  Or is that somehow Apple's fault anyway?

Most users don't do anything that requires an FPU, so its not
included standard, to save the average user money.  You can add one
if you run something like Mathematica (on a IIsi, God help you).
Third parties are going to sell FPU boards for the LC.


>* I won't even try to sort out all the monitor options for the LC.  Yikes!
What's wrong with the monitor options?  You can get a really cheap 12"
black and white monitor, or a slightly more expensive 12" color monitor,
or an even more expensive 13" color monitor.  

What's the problem, you want Apple to say 
"It only works with this new, incompatible, monitor.  Buy it and shut up,
but don't try use your old Mac II monitor on it, because it won't work"?
That would make all the users real happy, I'm sure...


>* The Mac Classic has 1 Meg soldered to the board, expandable to 4 Meg, and
>can't use 4 Meg SIMMS.  The LC comes with 2 Meg soldered to the board,
>expandable to 10 Meg.  To IIsi has no memory soldered on board, and is
>expandable to 17 Meg.  Then there are all the different configurations
>and new SIMM sizes....
Like all Mac Plus based machines (including the SE), the Classic is limited
to 4MB total RAM.  If you put 2 4MB SIMMs in, you'd get 8MB, thus wasting
4MB.  Why should Apple support such a stupid memory configuration?

The memory is soldered in because its cheaper and more reliable to not
use sockets.  You got a problem with reliability engineering?


>And one thing you almost never had to worry about on any computer was
>power.  Expansion cards on the LC and IIsi will have to have very small
>power budgets, and it looks like many NuBus cards will have problems.
>To quote Andrew Lewis, president of DayStar Digital (MacWeek 11/6/90),
>"'Almost all the products we've done have busted the power budget.'"
>According to MacWeek, many times when this happens, you'll have to replace
>the whole motherbaord!  How many NuBus cards available now list power
>useage?  Yet another thing we have to watch out for....
Wait a minute.  Look at this statement.  The board manufacturer admits
that his board is over the stated power limit.  This power limit has
been published to board developers since the Mac II.  Its not new.
Why aren't you mad at the board developer for trying to sell you a
board which HE KNOWS will mess up your Mac!

The power limits haven't changed since the Mac II.  In previous
machines, the board developers used more than their allotment,
expecting to draw the extra power reserved for other, hopefully
unused, slots.  But put 6 of those boards in a Mac II, or 3 in
a IIcx, amd you'll have exactly the same problem.


>I teach introductory computer courses to some people who have never even
>used a computer before.  One lady came and took one of my classes because
>she couldn't use the computer card system in our local library.  At the
>end of the course, I usually give the students a run down of the Macintosh
>line, because maone big headache.
>With the original Macintosh lines, there wasn't all these "catches"
>you had to watch out for.
Ok, suppose Apple went back to a nice, simple line.  A Mac Plus or a
Mac II, or nothing.  Would that make you happy?  

I can tell you one thing, it would cause a shareholder lawsuit.

You think life is complicated, try using a DOS machine.  Do you want
8088, 8086, 80286, 80386, 80386SX, or 80486?  4MHz, 6MHz, 10MHz,
12MHz, 16MHz, 20MHz, 25MHz, or 33MHz?  Lets talk video.  Do you want
a monochrome card, a monochrome Hercules graphics card, an CGA graphics
card, an EGA graphics card, a VGA graphics card, or a PGA graphics card?
(Or the new video "standard" IBM introduced a few weeks ago, I think
its called XGA.)  Don't forget to set the dip switches when you install
the video card!  When's the last time you set a dip switch on a Mac?
And don't worry about configuring multiple monitors on the same machine,
because the system won't support that.
Since you probably can't fit all your programs in 640K, you'll need more
memory.  Do you want extended memory, expanded memory, extended expanded,
or the RAM du jour?  Since you probably didn't buy a True Blue machine,
because you don't like being gouged, you got a clone.  Does it have
a good BIOS, from a reputable compoany like Pheonix, or some noname
job?  
What kinds of slots do you have?  8 bit XT standard? 16 bit AT standard?
Half height? 32 bit MCA?  32 bit EISA?
I'm not even going to get into networks, because I don't know enough
to make them work on a PC.

David