Path: utzoo!dciem!nttor!contact!bkj386!anton
From: anton@bkj386.uucp (Anton Aylward)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.sysv386
Subject: Screen packages in general (was Re: Vermont Views)
Summary: termcap and terminfo are the standard ?????
Keywords: user interface
Message-ID: <1990Nov27.165132.1335@bkj386.uucp>
Date: 27 Nov 90 16:51:32 GMT
References: <4999@rsiatl.UUCP> <274AD9FB.218D@tct.uucp> <5089@rsiatl.UUCP>
Sender: Anton J Aylward
Reply-To: anton@analsyn.UUCP
Organization: Chaos in the Basement
Lines: 75

I've looked at a lot of screen packages and am very  unhapy  with
them.   Almost  all  turn areound and say "we aren't going to use
the  UNIX standard   /etc/termcap  or  /usr/lib/terminfo",  we're
going to re- invent the wheel.

This really burns me.  it may be OK for in house  developers  and
hackers who can waste time cutting new things like VVTERMCAP etc,
but for us who have to shift product or  install  at  a  customer
site its the pits.  We get paid for results, not for wasting time
hacking about.

Now CURSES may not be perfect.  it may be  bloated  and  only  do
80-90%  of  the  job, but it is there.  it is also a standard, as
far as the TERMCAP/TERMINFO side goes.

So how can we criticise it?

Two ways, both of which go fully into the hands of ISC SCO  INTEL
etc:

	1) it lacks colour ...... etc
	   Yes it does/no it doesn't.

	   NO it doesn't.  I've been using ATT WGS machines with 
	   SVR3.2.  They have colour capability in CURSES.  If SCO
	   etc choose not to implement this for their own reasons
	   that's their problem.   Go buy your UNIX from someone who
	   adhere's to the standard.

	2) it can't do <insert your favourite....>

	   My "favourite" is ledger lines.  
	   I'm in the process of converting an application from ATT
	   equipment (3B & WGS) to SCO XENIX.  It was written for
	   TERMINFO.   The SCO TERMINFO lacks many features that
	   were introduced in SVR2.0.  In fact most of the SCO XENIX 
	   implemetation of TERMINFO & utilities is riddled with
	   bugs.  We're basically having to re-write CURSES, or the
	   facilities we need!

	   The stock solution is being told to upgrade to SCO UNIX
	   (or something like that).  This is fine for us,
	   developing with the latest, most feature-full release.
	   But what about customers buying the package from sortes
	   and other outlets?

	   To put this in persspective, would you consider buying,
	   say, Norton Tools for DOS, if they were written so that
	   they used the '286 & '386 extended instructions and the
	   features of the VGA ?    I mean this in the sense that
	   you HAVE to upgrade to use the program at all!

	   We're trying to make a design which will work if you
	   haven't been obsesive about keeping up with new
	   technology, if you don't have a colour screen (I'm a
	   Brit, i spel funy!) if you don't have a VT220 with 16
	   functions keys and 8 display levels.....

	   We're also trying to produce a product which can be
	   installed without being an expert in TERMCAP or TERMINFO
	   and without having to RTFM.   One of our support group
	   made the comment

		"If you have to _read_ the manual, its too complex"

	   OK, maybe its a bit extreeme for you and me as
	   developers, but the end users do have that attitude.


So (flame down), can someone tell the net of a good, easy to use
screen pacakge which does follow the UNIX standards ?

/anton aylward				Analysis Synthesis Consulting Inc
					anton@analsyn.uucp
					"12 Years with UNIX"