Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!udel!princeton!njin!paul.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: tja@mungunni.cs.mu.oz.au (Tim ARNOLD) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Did Erasmus live in vain? Message-ID: Date: 26 Nov 90 01:23:40 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 93 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu (John Graves) writes: >In article >root@mamia.UCAR.EDU (Sys Admin) writes: >> "Universal Unitarianism - a church where you don't check your mind >> at the door" - but maybe you should, just to see if it's functioning! >One of the great appeals of Unitarian Universalism is that science is >compatible with our religion. We do not hold to that which flies in the >face of empirical evidence, nor do we hold that all or any scientific >theory is complete and total. Here, here! >A requirement to believe by faith is by its >very statement opposed to the free use of the mind. To quote Hebrews (I forget where) "Faith is the assurance of things unseen, the certainty of things to come." How can this means you don't use your mind? I rely largely on the evidence in the Bible and other sources which convince me of its validity together with my own intellectual assessment of what it contains for my faith (admittedly that is not the sum total of faith but the Bible says it should be a part eg Romans 5 "Be transformed by the renewing of your MIND"). The Holy Spirit works to improve your mind not destroy it! >To choose to believe >without sufficient evidence is often necessary even in the most mundane of >situtations, but a requirement to believe in unproven data explicitly >denies the ability of a person to make choices based on reason for >themselves. Unitarians Universalists choose to have faith in reason, in >humanity's ability to make a better world paradigm than the self-defeating >one based on a concept of original sin. Humans need to be sanctified (made whole) by God. Christianity gets its strength and uniqueness by recognizing man's failure to make a better world. That is not self-defeating because we recognize that God can make a difference where we cannot. It is precisely by rejecting God's guidance as to what is best for the world that we have managed so successfully to stuff it up. I have faith in reason but my reason tells me man (and particularly me) has failed and if anything is going to improve it has to be done God's way. After all who can get the world running the way it should other than its creator (Whether you take a litteral interpretation of Genesis or not, the message of the OT and Genesis in particular is that God is in control way beyond the powers of man)? Me? Me working with other like minded people? I'm not that arrogant (close though). I prefer and work hard to change the world the way God suggests and commands. >We believe that education and >reason and nonrational (not irrational) activities such as love and prayer Since when has love been irrational? Love is not an emotion it is an action. The two great commandments are (COMMANDMENT => action) love God and love your neighbour. Jesus then illustrated what loving your neighbour meant with the parable of the Good Samaritan ie helping him or her when they need help. Likewise for prayer. Prayer is all about communication and relationship building with God. That may not be a purely rational process but I defy you to communicate with somebody in more than a superficial way without engaging your MIND. These are the ways God suggests we change the world. Do you claim higher authority? >can work together to create a better world on this earth, not in some >postdeath realm, but for the living. We may be wrong, but we continue >research and development for a better way. Christianity is all about God's kingdom, not man's. That kingdom is here now. It started when Christ's death and resurrection announced victory over evil and death (if you think that is irrational then read "Who rolled the stone away?" can't remember the author off hand but most good Christian book stores will have it or should be able to order it or suggest a more recent book covering similar material). Being a Christian is about being part of that kingdom now in its struggle between the new life in Christ and the bondage of our sinful bodies (see Paul's experience in Romans 7), and in a "postdeath realm" when we are finally released from that bondage and God's kingdom is consumated here on earth. Join God's kingdom to share that. Create man's kingdom and the warnings are clear (Mark is a good place to start reading about God's kingdom and Jesus' place in it). >John Allan Graves Unitarian Universalism >Duke University An inclusive religion! >and all its components () >including the Divinity School, \__/ > disavow anything I say. II flame deleted ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Arnold Law/Science (Computer Science Hons) Undergrad tja@munnari.cs.mu.oz.AU The University of Melbourne