Path: utzoo!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!att!att!bu.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!crackers!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!shari From: AND100@PSUVM.PSU.EDU (Aref N. Dajani) Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam Subject: Re: Torah in the Koran Message-ID: <1990Nov28.222036.14634@wpi.WPI.EDU> Date: 28 Nov 90 22:20:36 GMT References: <1990Nov28.161255.21868@wpi.WPI.EDU> Sender: shari@wpi.WPI.EDU (Shari Deiana VanderSpek) Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Lines: 139 Approved: shari@wpi.wpi.edu As-salaamu aleikum. Peace unto all of you. Elizabeth, I am not an Islamic scholar. I am responding as a Muslim who was born and raised in America, where the customs of my family were commonly interplayed against the "Judeo-Christian" value system disseminated by our society. (Major Disclaimer: If my fellow Muslim brother and sister scholars have dispute with my following discussion, don't be upset. Correct me openly, as Verily Allah is is with the Patient. Inna Allaha ma'a as-sabireen!) < There are several places in the Koran which claim that the Torah < is a divine revelation from God. It even goes so far as to say < that Jesus confirmed that the Torah is the work of God. At least < two of these references are found in the House of Iman. It's great that you've read Qur'an and if I were either a Jew or a Christian, I would have interpreted the appropriate passages similarly. Here's the problem: We Muslims believe that both Jews and Christians are part of what some may call an elite community of mankind called "Ahlul-Kitaab", commonly translated as People of the Book. The First and Fundamental Pillar of Islam is Imaan (I'm into phonetics!), which is commonly translated as Faith or Belief. But it's not only faith or belief in God or Allah that we're talking about. Imaan also comprises Belief in the Angels of God, the Books of God, the Prophets of God, AND Life after Death. (For my Muslim brothers and sisters: "Amantu billahi wa malaaikatihi wa kutubihi wa rusulihi wal yawmil akhiri...") Muslims use different definitions to the words Torah (Tawraat) and Gospel (Injeel) than those used by Jews and Christians. Muslims believe in that which was REVEALED to Moses (Tawraat) and Jesus (Injeel) by Allah. Here, already, Muslims have a problem with Christians, in that Christians believe that the Bible comprises the life and lessons of "Lord Christ" to his followers, not revelations TO "The Son" FROM "The Father". I argue that even in the Bible, "Jesus preached the Gospel" to his followers (Reference? Take your pick of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John!) but what REMAINS today are the gospels ACCORDING to M, M, L, and J -- not the "Gospel that Jesus preached", that Muslims would call the ORIGINAL. >From what I understand, similarly, what is today the Torah is NOT exactly what Muslims refer to as Tawraat. I'm almost positive that in the middle of Surah Baqarah (Chapter II of the Qur'an), a verse states that "Some of the Revelation to Moses was left out and some of it was changed", thereby making it VERY difficult to know which should be considered the original and which wasn't. (A similar argument was made for the "Bible".) It also says in the Qur'an (I'm not sure on the location for this one) that Allah will pronounce judgment in the Hereafter in those matters where we (Muslims vs. Jews and Christians) differ. So though we Muslims believe in the Tawraat, we don't know its original verses are still extant in today's Torah. I'll end this remark with a short but powerful aside: many people think that the Old Testament that Christians believe in is just a PERMUTED (switched-around) Torah. That's mostly right, but there are some serious translation differences, at least where I've looked at the English. In the Torah clearly in Isaiah 45, "God created Evil," completely consistent with Surah Falaq (Chapter 113). Depending on the Bible, God created other things that weren't as bad. It causes interesting debate with Christians when one asks why Jesus "died for our sins" if "He created evil". It isn't very consistent. < Now, here is my question. Do Islamic people agree with the Koran < and accept the Torah word for word? For example, if there is a story < in the Torah which is not in the Koran, would Islamic people believe < it? And further, what do Islamic people have to say when the Torah < contradicts the Koran? < < Thanks, < < Elizabeth I don't mean to be a stickler for syntax, but I think most of us would prefer if you call us Islamic people "Muslims" as this is a precise translation (in Arabic) of "one who submits to God". With all due respect, Elizabeth, when I hear the phrase "Islamic people", it sounds like you think of Islam as a culture or a social expression, not as a religion or way of life as we know it. There are many stories in the Torah that aren't in the Qur'an that may or may not contradict Islamic teachings. And there are stories in the Qur'an that may or may not contradict Jewish teachings. I'll give you an example of all four types since I know both works well enough, but I'll say here that I PERSONALLY feel that it is not constructive for Muslims to either accept or deny EVERYTHING in today's Torah, because we Muslims are asked to hold DEEP respect for Christians and Jews (as opposed to Wiccan Pagans and other Polytheists). In Surah Baqarah (Chapter 2), you can read that what holds us all together (Muslims, Jews, Christians, and "Sabaeans") is that we all believe in Allah and that we all believe in the Last Day. We shouldn't forget this. AND I feel we shouldn't be AS divided as we are by the fine points. Accordingly, it says in the Qur'an that "Your God and Our God is One". I hope we all agree that Allah will judge Magnificently in where we differ. And that we together pray for peace. All over the place. (1) In the Torah and Old Testament in Genesis, God promises a Covenant to the Sons of Isaac and "Twelve Princes and a Great Nation" to the Sons of Ishmael. Muslims won't have have a problem with this, especially with this Great Nation Muslims point to as Islam. (In the New Testament in John, Jesus predicts a "comforter" after him that most Christians "recognize" as "The Holy Spirit" on the Day of "Pentacost". Muslims feel that the "Comforter" came much later, as the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Muslims and Christians should talk more about Pentacost and Original Sin and less about the divinity of Jesus. THAT dialogue has gone nowhere. (2) Both the Qur'an and the Torah state that Abraham ALMOST sacrificed his son. But which? The Qur'an says Ishmael and the Torah says Isaac. It is hard to imagine though plausible that Abraham almost sacrificed BOTH. This is an example of stories in each, not told in the other, where probably NEITHER people would believe that the other story is true. (3) The Qur'an talks about how rough life was for Abraham BEFORE he left for the Holy Land. Abraham's father was a wood-carver, an idol-maker, and Abraham prayed for Allah's forgiveness for that. I don't think that Jews would have a problem with this. (4) But the Torah goes into great detail about how Sarah BANISHED Hagar and her little son to the desert, while Muslims would not give her all (if any) of the credit. Similarly, the Qur'an goes into great detail about how the Jewish kingdoms DESERVED to be overtaken by the Assyrians and the Babylonians and that for those who wanted to revert back to the old ways (as in the Golden Calf), Allah exclaims in the Qur'an: "Be ye apes, despised and hated." As I said before, I'm excited by your reading Qur'an. As I have read and continue to enjoy reading both the Bible and the Torah, I find joy in the similarities between our faiths that I have uncovered, way far beyond any of our MINOR differences! Pax aeterna (As-salaamu aleikum), Aref N. Dajani "Ana wa akhee 'ala ibn 'amee. Ana wa ibn 'amee 'ala al-ghareeb." (My brother and I against my cousin. My cousin and I against the stranger...)