Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!crdgw1!greenba From: greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy Subject: Re: Language and Self-Awareness (was Re: Testing Intelligence) Message-ID: Date: 3 Dec 90 14:22:59 GMT References: <4832@gara.une.oz.au> <1990Nov30.180650.26648@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@crdgw1.crd.ge.com Organization: GE Corporate Research & Development Lines: 52 In-reply-to: yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu's message of 1 Dec 90 19:55:15 GMT In article yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu (Brian Yamauchi) writes: Path: crdgw1!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!sol!yamauchi From: yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu (Brian Yamauchi) Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy Date: 1 Dec 90 19:55:15 GMT References: <4832@gara.une.oz.au> <1990Nov30.180650.26648@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Sender: news@cs.rochester.edu (Usenet news) Organization: University of Rochester Lines: 75 In article greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes: In article <1990Nov30.180650.26648@watdragon.waterloo.edu> cpshelley@violet.uwaterloo.ca (cameron shelley) writes: In article greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes: > ... >reasoning and self awareness in any >non-trivial senses require language. > How do you figure that? Do you mean a mental language? If so, what do you consider 'mentalese' to be like? No, not a mental language. An actual, socially derived language. What is reasoning without talking to oneself, or actually writing to oneself? We do this all the time when reasoning with tough problems. Now cats can solve tough problems, but there is no way to classify their performance as reasoning beyond just the statement that they solve the problems. When we humans reason, we clearly use language. For some forms of reasoning, in particular formal deductive reasoning, this is certainly true. However, other types of problem solving (such as spatial reasoning) seem to involve visual simulations (imagery) rather than language. Yes, we can use visual imagery to solve problems. But the question was do we need language in order to reason. I don't equate problem solving with reasoning. Vocabulary is a problem in this field, I know, but I try to stick as close as I can to ordinary language, and IMHO reasoning is a manipulation of words (as in talking to oneself) or writing (as in solving mathetical problems). Problems can be solved by intuition without any reasoning. -- Ben A. Green, Jr. greenba@crd.ge.com Speaking only for myself, of course.