Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!ucsd!nosc!crash!pro-graphics.cts.com!bobl
From: bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: 24 bit color boards
Message-ID: <6103@crash.cts.com>
Date: 5 Dec 90 09:16:09 GMT
Sender: root@crash.cts.com
Lines: 139


 bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin) writes:
 
> >  Kent is correct. The HAM-E and DCTV are =NOT= 24 bit frame buffers
> > or boards.  They get their color information from lookup tables or
> > some such thing.  Animation with the HAM-E can only be done by flipping
> > full pages, unless you count writing your own software to create
> > animations and such.  Don't be fooled by crafty advertising.  If you
> > want true 24-bit, you'd best get a toaster or Firecracker. --Bob
> 
> Well now. Normally, I try to be reasonable when people make honest
> mistakes. When, on the other hand, someone acts like they know 
> it all, when they clearly know nothing (or perhaps slightly less, 
> as in this case), I tend to get a little sweaty.
>
> Not in any particular order, but: The Firecracker, as stated, 
> is a true 24 bit board. At least you got _one_ thing right. The 
> toaster, in sharp contrast to the publicity, is not a 24 bit 
> board, as NTSC composite won't modulate to 24 bits precision 
> in any case. As soon as you go composite (which the toaster always 
> is) you don't have 24 bits. Likewise for DCTV - technically. 

Correction.  The Toaster IS a 24 bit board.  It saves 24 bit IFF images and
will also save 24 bit RGB files.  It doesn't, however, OUTPUT 24 bit video
because of the above stated reason.  It does all it's work in 24 bits.

> The HAM-E offers two modes; one is 256 colors with a 24 bit palette; 
> this is 256 grey level accurate RGB but is not "true 24 bit" 
> in the sense that any pixel can be any 24 bit value independant 
> of another pixel. The other mode is an 18 bit mode, with 24 bit 
> pixels mixed in here and there. We use dither to achieve full 
> 24 bit representation of images in a color space that is always 
> at least 18 bits (1/4 million colors) and sometimes more, depending 
> on where the registers are used.

So HAM-E offers 256 on-screen colors out of a palette of 16 million in one
mode and a <24 bit dithered mode with color registers in the other.

> The HAM-E is fully capable of full screen animation as noted 
> above, however, it is ALSO capable of standard ANIM type animation, 
> blitter "BOB" type animation, color cycle animation, and glow 
> range animation. This is because these are, underneath, simply 
> hi res Amiga screens.
> 
> You don't need to write your own software, in fact you can use 
> the brush anims in DPaint, of all things, to make path animations. 
> Blitter animation is clearly demonstrated by the use of fully 
> stenciled brushes in our paint software (You can look at this 
> by DL'ing the paint from our BBS at (406) 367-ABBS)

I'm very sorry to say that brush anims in Dpaint do NOT work.  We've tried
to animate Dpaint brushes as we normally do (and we do this ALOT) and the
HAM-E would not maintain it's color values as the image moved.  Unless you
have some special method of animating dpaint brushes that we are unaware of.
We do alot of animations for several clients in the tri-state area and we
KNOW how to animate in Dpaint III.  Typical Dpaint III techniques do NOT
work with the HAM-E unless you do not use the Move requestor.  The only way I
can see it working is to move outlined b/w brushes around to get the movement
down and then fill in the colors for each frame.  Quite pains-taking I assure
you.  

> I'd like to close by pointing out an interesting contrast. Bob 
> signs himself as (apparently) representing the "Pro-Graphics" 

No apparently about it, I run the system.

> BBS.  Personally, I'd be a little cautious of dealing with a BBS 
> where those who run or handle it prove, in silly messages on 
> the nets, that they don't know what 24 bit graphics means, expound 
> upon devices they _obviously_ have not taken the time to find 
> out about (or, if they did, didn't understand what they were 
> told), and give advice that tells the reader to, without question, 
> get a $1500.00 device over a $300.00 device when he's not clear 
> on the facts he bases his recomendation upon.

You have a wonderful way of putting words in people's mouths, don't you.
Whether or not I know what 24 bits are all about is irrelevant, I know what
I see and your device sir, does not stand up to true 24 bit framebuffer
output be it composite or 24 bit output, period.  Besides, I didn't 
unequivocally tell readers to purchase a $1500.00 device over yours.  I
suggested they do so if they were looking for 24 bit output quality.

> In short, Bob, shut up, eh? Or else learn the subject.

Thanks for the advice.
 
> Oh yeah - please note that the HAM-E has not been advertised 
> in print as of yet - the ads are being placed now, since we've 
> been shipping for about 60 days - company policy not to go to 
> print ads until things are ready, FCC approved, etc. Just so 
> you're clear that your remark about "crafty advertising" could 
> not have possibly applied to us... though if you're as accurate 
> about your evaluation of ads as you are about 24 bit gfx, perhaps 
> you're not sure who you ARE talking about.

Crafty advertising applied to DCTV and not your company.
 
> Ben Williams, for Black Belt Systems   <76004.1771@compuserve.com>
> December 2nd, 1990, in response to a quote forwarded from comp.sys.amiga

The above public attacks on myself, my BBS and my company were uncalled for.

I do not know everything there is to know about 24-bit boards or color
registers, lookup tables and the like.  I was stating some personal
observations from my first experiences with your product.  I am an end-user
and not a programmer or hardware expert.  I can tell you, however, that my
first impressions of the product for 2D animation were unfavorable.  I can see
application for 3D work if you don't mind the low output quality compared to
the "real" 24 bit devices available.

I will go on to state that the documentation supplied with the HAM-E device
is quite possibly the worst documentation I have ever seen.  The manual was
poorly layed out, unorganized and incomplete.   Additional information had to
be either printed or viewed from text files on disk that were poorly
formatted for output to a printer.  The upgrade policy for the HAM-E states
that no upgrade or update disks will be mailed and that all updates MUST be
obtained by dialing the Black-Belt Systems BBS.  They suggest in the
documentation that if you don't have a modem that you'd best purchase one.

Add that to the cost of your HAM-E device!  Also add to that the cost of
long-distance phone calls to this BBS for your bug-fixes and updates.

In addition to this, my associate who runs a complete broadcast production
company has informed me that the HAM-E will not output through the genlock to
our record decks.  We have a full A/B roll edit suite with TBC's, frame
synchronizers, GVG Model 100 switcher and broadcast VTR's with which we
output all our animations to complete video productions.  Every item we've
ever used has output through our genlocking device for our Amiga to tape
except this one.

-- Bob

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