Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!udel!rochester!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A Question Message-ID: Date: 30 Nov 90 09:35:47 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or. Lines: 107 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) writes: > I had a funny thought while listening to the sermon this morning >during the Lutheran service my wife and I went to. The pastor was >talking about Christ the King Sunday, and Jesus Christ's role on >Judgement Day. > He said some things that may have surprised some of the people at >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will >use is one of works, and not faith. I suspect your pastor is a bit unusual (and of course in a brief posting you can't include the whole sermon so it's hard to determine exactly what he was saying). However, I am inclined to agree with at least the general idea. The theme comes from Mat 25:31-46, the "Parable of the Sheep and the Goats." As you say, those who visit the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc. are sheep who inherit the kingdom prepared by the Father. Those who do not do are goats who go to everlasting fire. Note that this parable specifically refers to "all nations" and there is nothing in the language to indicate any exceptions, be they disciples or not. So how do we reconcile this with other biblical statements that we are saved by grace, not works? Can both statements be true? In fact I believe they are, we are saved by the grace of Jesus but we must "work" to qualify for that grace. If we do not love our neighbor and manifest that love with our actions we will not receive the grace necessary for salvation. Please note that we do not "earn" grace, to earn something means to do work of value equivalent to what is being earned. There is obviously no way for us to do work equivalent to the value of salvation. However I think we are expected to do what we can. In the words of the Book of Mormon, "We are saved by grace, after all we can do." I think there 2 sources of the misunderstanding which leads to the idea that works have nothing to do with salvation: 1. Faith. Clearly our salvation depends on faith. However, we must understand faith as it was used by the writers of the Bible. I am convinced that to them faith was more a verb than a noun. The word implies action. That's why James refers to showing faith by our works (James 2:14-26, esp v 18). Faith without works is dead and useless. We need a living faith for salvation. Faith by definition, I think, must include works. 2. Misunderstanding of some of Paul's teachings. Paul on several occasions refers to salvation being by grace, not works. Some of these taken out of context seem to say that works are not necessary at all. However a careful reading of the context shows that in nearly all cases the Paul was talking about works of the Law of Moses. Remember that this was the great religious question of the early church. The law had been *the* way to approach God for centuries and the early Christians naturally were reluctant to abandon it. Paul's letters were mostly written to address specific problems which arose and the problem of the law was one which came up frequently. I would urge my readers (assuming I have any) to go to their favorite "works vs. grace" passage and see if it is not in the context of a comparison of the gospel with the law. Perhaps this is what Peter was referring to when he called some of Paul's writings "hard to be understood." (2 Pet 3:15-16) Considering the passages where Paul condemns those who persist in sin (liars, whoremongers, etc.) and urges righteous living and charity I think Paul also believed in works as necessary to salvation. He just meant real works of righteousness, not just external performances of the law. I think this idea of the necessity of works to qualify for grace goes along with Jesus's teachings, particularly in the sermon on the mount. Jesus taught a righteousness beyond that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Long prayers to be seen of men were not acceptable, prayer should be a private communication with God. Alms for the poor were commended but only if truly given, not when given to be seen by others. Love was to be extended even to one's enemies. Jesus taught an inward total righteousness. While this righteousness did not include a lot of ceremonial requirements it did include proper treatment of our fellow beings. > Thinking about it, this would mean that many people who have never >stepped into a christian church would be among the sheep and many who >went to church each Sunday and gave 5% of the income yearly, etc. >would be set among the goats. Well, as the saying goes, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than sleeping in a garage will make you a Chevy. Certainly Jesus sayings are full of statements condemning as hypocrites those who outwardly appear righteous but are not so inwardly. I think most churches believe that there will be those who attend regularly but will not be saved. It is probably less common (but not unheard of) for a church to teach that someone who never attends can be saved. In any case, I think most would agree that what is really required for salvation is a change of heart and that it is possible to do all the outward things to appear religious but not have this change of heart. ... > Also, what happens to the people who are NOT explicitly christian, >but still live lives that "qualify" them for salvation on judgement >day? Are they also relegated to damnation because they did not >"choose" God and Christ? Well, I don't think anyone who has a real chance to accept Christ and rejects it will be saved. However there are of course many who have no such chance in this life. I believe they will have that chance between death and resurrection. This has been discussed here before but if you want I will email you more information on it.