Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A Question Message-ID: Date: 30 Nov 90 09:39:38 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 144 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) writes: > > He said some things that may have surprised some of the people at >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will >use is one of works, and not faith. The picture in Matthew 25:31-46 is one of Judgement Day. Christ will separate the believers from the unbelievers, the sheep from the goats. The image of Christ as a shepherd is also used in John 10:11-18; in v. 14 he says: "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me". In particular I stress that the sheep know Christ. They follow him as sheep follow their shepherd. They are believers. So why does the King speak of their works? Let me answer in this way: The 'sheep' show no awareness of having done such great works; evidently they have not trusted in their works for their salvation. But the King cites their works, I believe, as *evidence* that they have faith. He does this primarily to show that he is a just judge, who punishes the wicked and justifies the good. Christians, including Lutherans, have always taught that faith produces works. Works are the fruit of faith. In reality faith cannot exist without works, they are inseparable. However Paul makes very clear in Romans ch. 3, 4 that we are justified by faith apart from works. (ch 3:28). To be justified is a legal term, meaning to be acquitted, or 'declared righteous'. The same message is taught in Ephesians 2:8,9.: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." It is interesting to see what kind of works he sets forth as evidence. He cites works of service and mercy to 'these brothers of mine'. These brothers of Christ are, again, the believers, who have received the adoption as sons of God (Romans 8:14-17) who can call God 'Abba', literally 'Daddy', just as Christ did (Mark 14:36). Who also are called members of the body of Christ, so that literally whatever we do for them is done for Christ. > > Thinking about it, this would mean that many people who have never >stepped into a christian church would be among the sheep and many who >went to church each Sunday and gave 5% of the income yearly, etc. >would be set among the goats. The only way I could agree with you here, is that some may believe in Christ but never attend church--which seems unlikely, because a believer would seek the fellowship of his fellow sheep, and also because Christ cites their service to their fellow sheep. That there are unbelievers within the visible church is in fact a clear teaching of Scripture. See the parable of the wheat and the weeds (tares) (Matthew 13:24-30). So I have no argument with your conclusion that many churchgoers will be among the goats. > This led me to what I believe is a possible contradiction (just >one?!?!) in the christian doctrine. It seems really weird to me that >"God" would create the human race with free will, punish us for >dis-obeying him, offer salvation if we "choose" to return to him, and >then basically discard everyone else. This seems really arrogant and >callous to me. This asks a whole bunch of questions that might be answered with a book and not a short article. I will try to give you a brief answer, but you would also do well to sit down with a Lutheran pastor, (preferrably from the WELS or ELS, IMHO), and ask him the same question. 1. God created Adam and Eve with free will. They freely chose to disobey him. In so doing they and all their descendants lost that free will and became slaves to Satan. They became 'dead in their transgressions and sins' (Ephesians 2). 2. Because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve, man's nature is in such a corrupted state that he cannot save himself, nor can he 'choose' to return to God. This has less to do with God's fairness than with Satan's wickedness. We are like mad dogs who continually bite the hand that feeds us. 3. As an aside, God barred Adam and Eve from the garden as an act of mercy, to keep them from eating of the tree of life and living forever in a state of rebellion against and separation from God. 4. As an act of mercy, which we in no way deserve, God sent his only begotten Son Jesus, to become one of us, to live a perfect and holy life as one of us, and to take the punishment that we deserve upon himself through his death on the cross. In this act of grace (i.e., undeserved love and mercy) Jesus redeemed *all* men from sin and Satan. That's right, God redeemed all of us, both unbeliever and believer. We call this 'universal', or 'objective' justification. "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died [with Christ]." And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." 2 Cor 5:14,15 We receive this justification through faith. But the unbeliever remains in hostility to God and rejects his salvation. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Romans 8:6-8. Note that this speaks about unbelievers, those 'controlled by the sinful nature, who have not been reborn through faith, or 'made alive in Christ' (Ephesians 2), or 'born of water and the Spirit' (John 3). They cannot please God. > Also, what happens to the people who are NOT explicitly christian, >but still live lives that "qualify" them for salvation on judgement >day? Are they also relegated to damnation because they did not >"choose" God and Christ? > None of us *deserves* salvation. Those who are cast into the eternal fire get what they deserve. Those who inherit the kingdom get what they do not deserve. Think for a minute (or longer) on what kind of holiness and perfection God's law demands of you, and then ask yourself whether you want to get what you deserve, or do you want to receive the salvation that is offered to you as a free gift? >I know the above has not been stated as well as it could be, but I am >not very much of a writer and cannot do any better. > > Lance I too, often feel that I must not be expressing myself very well. "Who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" This is Isaiah 53:1. It expresses some of the frustration I feel in posting to the net. It seems Isaiah felt the same way. But read the rest of Isaiah 53, and compare it to the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and see if this perfectly fulfilled prophecy, 600 years before Christ, does not shore up your faith somewhat. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.