Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!gatech!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A Question Message-ID: Date: 4 Dec 90 05:41:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 163 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: >> Excerpts from netnews.soc.religion.christian: 29-Nov-90 Re: A Question >> Frank Farkas@eng.sun.com (4704) > >> >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would >> >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will >> >use is one of works, and not faith. > >> Your pastor was 100% correct. In every case judgement is mentioned by >> the Bible it is always says that we will be judged by our works, or by >> our fruiths. We don't have a single case where it is said that we will >> be >> judged by our faith. > >No, but we have lots of cases where it is said that we'll be saved by it. > > Check out Romans 3 21-end. And how about John 3:16? I've always >understood that "separate the sheep from the goats" referred to >salvation and not to judgement. I believe that both of you are wrong in your understanding of the parable of the sheeps and the goats. Read Matt 25: 34&41 where the judgement is rendered for the sheeps and the goats. I believe that both of you are engaged in rationalization. > If a person honestly believes Jesus is Lord, and he will >confess that, then he doesn't have to do anything else to be saved. >(being baptized is something Jesus said to do, and I don't think you >acknowledge someone as Lord and then disobey them...but I'm not willing >to say you'll go to hell if you aren't baptized, too.) Just a some food for taught: 1. Why did Jesus and the all of the writers of the N.T. admonish the saints to do good works? 2. Why is it that all of the passages on the judgement says that we will be judged based on our works, or on our fruiths? Secondly, the scripture does say that we will be saved if we believe and if we will be baptised. The scriptures are explicitly clear regarding the requirements of baptism. Mark 16:16 ---------- "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." John 3:5 ======== "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto the, Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he can't enter into the kingdom of God." Now, if we don't want to accept the scripture on this subject is because we have been misled, or because we don't want to. Please don't bring up other passages which in your mind will obsolete, or make the ones I quoted no longer operational. Unfortunately, we are engaged many times by the game of using scripture to disprove scripture to support our own theology which we feel comfortable with. It is a false logic when we have two apparently contradictory passage in the Bible and we explain one of them away (of course, we explain the one away which don't happened to fit our concept of the truth). We are being asked to choose one or the other. This logic ignores the fact that both of them are true, and there are no contradictions at all. > > Finally, about James 2. a few points... > 1) James is writing to Christians, not people who need salvation. Of course he does! This is the reason why it is so important that we understand the importance of good works. > 2) He does NOT say 'works instead of faith'. He says 'Since you have >faith, put it to work for others.' He is absolutly correct! But tell me, who is the one who supposed to put their faith to works? We are, not God! > 3) He's talking about dealing with the needs of others. If we really >believe that God is willing to meet that need, then YOU meet theirs, and >let God meet yours. THAT is LIVING faith. James is not addressing the >topic of salvation. He's talking about whether you're acting according >to your faith or to your laziness. I have a constant struggle with this >myself (so did Paul, and every Christian between us). But it has no >bearing on whether or not I will go to heaven. Be careful to take >passages in their possible context. > It all depends what you mean by heaven. Paul wrote that he was caught up into the third heaven!??!! 2 Corint 12:3-4 =============== "I knew a man in Christ above fourteenyears ago, (whether in the body, I can't tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven." "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." He also explains us that the resurrection of the dead will differ in glory. Interestingly he identified three types of Glory, and differences in glory in one of the types: I Corint 15:41-42 ***************** "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." Let me ask the question, do you really believe that you will be joint heirs with Christ, even though you have no good works? Some food for thoughts. > In conclusion, I'd offer a warning. We have to be right, and not >just sincere and committed to Jesus, when we teach. James 3:1 warns us >to be right. Jesus said woe be unto him who brings a stumbling block to >others...better that he be drowned than do that. Yes, doing good works >is VITAL to being a servant of the Lord, avoiding hypocrisy, and being a >sign to others. But saying salvation is determined by this is to deny >grace, exalt ourselves, and put to shame the redemptive sacrifice God >provided. > >Jesus is Lord... >-Vince Mulhern Brother, when we teach the unimportance of good works, we teach things which is not true at all. I believe that good works are important, other wise we wouldn't be taught by the scriptures that they are. When we say that we don't need to have good works to be joint heirs with Christ, we are teaching something which is false. When we are saying that there is no relationship between faith and good works, we are saying something which is false. The scriptures do speak clearly regarding this subject: James 2:17 ========== " Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead alone." If we say that we believe and we have no good works, how are we goiung to be saved with our dead faith? James 2:19 ========== "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also belive, and tremble." James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:24 ========== "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." With brotherly love, Frank