Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: charles@rpi.edu (Charles K. Hurst) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Infant Baptism, and a Few Oddments Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 90 08:22:12 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Lines: 67 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Ok, I'm stripping out tons o'stuff here to get to my point, so you will prob- ably want to go back and read the previous posts if you want to know what's going on here( Oops! If you've been following this line, then you won't need to! :). In article farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >In article , wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes: >>In article farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: [vast quantities deleted] >I do not disagree with your statement. To baptize someone who has no faith >in Christ is like baptizing a bag of beens. > >However, you have ignored my comments and pertaining scriptures that the >thief didn't go to heaven. He went where Christ went "today". The scripture >explicitly states that Jesus did't go to his Father. Peter explained that >he went into the spirit world to preach the gospel. The bottom line is that >the thief went to heaven is on of the many para scriptures which we believe >in, which is in fact not true at all. > Ok, this is from the NIV, so I am aware that it might not be an accurate translation, but here goes anyway. Luke 23:39-43 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Chirst? Save yourself and us!" 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom(1)." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." ^^^^^^^^^^^ (1) Some manuscripts "come with your kingly power". Umm, you have a problem here, Frank, because you are saying that because Jesus said 'today' and that Peter tells us that Jesus was in Hades/Sheol for three days that that's where the repentent criminal went. Unfortunately, there is that little 'in paradise' bit tossed on there. What does that mean? I hate to say this, but in my book it appears we are talking about heaven, or at least the part of Hades/Sheol reserved for people like Lazarus the beggar (Luke 16:19-31). It appears to me that this dude hanging on the cross there got rathered saved! Notice that he identifies Jesus as the Messiah and also acknowledges his own sinful condition. Finally, his asking Jesus to remember him when he 'comes into your(Jesus's) kingdom/come with your kingly power (Christ's second coming? Hmmm.) is the icing on the cake for me. This guy has accepted Christ as his savior then and there, I don't think he had to go to Sheol/Hades and get saved/baptised there. From the 'in paradise' and 'today' bit, I get the feeling that Christ thought the same thing. Ok, I could be way off base on these, but the basic point I wanted to make was that you totally appear to ignore the 'in paradise' bit in reaching the conclusions you made, Frank. Love in Christ, Charles K. Hurst charles@rpi.edu p.s. Hey, looks like I will get to make comments on your other post, Frank! [This discussion - both sides - seems to be taking a rather literal view of how much can happen in a "day" in the afterlife. How does time really apply there? --clh]