Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark T. Sandrock) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Grail Message question Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 90 08:41:15 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 136 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu joseph@cs.albany.edu (Jody Richardson) writes: (The >> lines are from my previous posting. -Mark Sandrock) >> "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till >> all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, >> but my words shall not pass away. (Matt 24:34-35, Mark 13:30-31) >> >> We now know that Jesus was not referring to the *physical* >> generation of that day, so therefore He could only have >> intended His words in the *spiritual* sense, as was so often >> the case when He spoke. >How about *metaphorical*? My Bible includes a footnote that >replaces "generation" with "race". Sure, if you are content with that explanation, but as you pointed out, one has to beware of "inventing" scenerios to "explain" that which one is otherwise unable to understand. I.e., in this case: "race". I remain firmly convinced that the correct word here is "generation", that Christ's words were meant *spiritually*, and that the explanation I have given is the correct one. Of course Jesus did teach through parables, but the above passage seems quite directly stated, and is best understood in the *spiritual* sense. >> Or finally, let's take a look at the Revelation: >> >> "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple >> of my God, and he shall go no more out..." (Rev 3:12) >> >> A reasonable interpretation of this passage is in the sense of the >> cycle of reincarnations, which ends only with the complete maturity of >> the spirit. Once a spirit has attained to such maturity, he is alloted >> a place in paradise and remains there forever. His reincarnations on >> earth come to an end. He has become one of those who "have washed their >> robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev 7:14) >This again sounds like a stretch. How about, "go out no more..." >from the presence (temple) of God? That is, in the sense of >rebeling or sinning or maybe spreading the Word or... Sounds like you're the one "stretching" for an explanation here! We originally had to "go out" from Paradise as *unconscious* spirit "germs" in order to descend into the World of Matter for the purpose of spiritual development. Once we have *completed* this development (through the course of several earthlives) we are able to return to Paradise, to the "temple of God", and "go out no more"! No more simple and clear explanation is possible! >> I hadn't considered this particular point hitherto, but then >> the truth of reincarnation is so clear to me that I no longer >> feel the need to try to prove/disprove its correctness to >> myself! >This quite clearly puts you in the position of having either 1) >to invent a senario to explain an apparent(!) contradiction (as >you did quite interestingly WRT Nicodemus) or 2) to simply reject >it without explanation. I don't say this in a derogatory manner. >I think we all have to do this in order to cope with some fairly >inocuous life-events. And therefore much more so with what one >considers to be religous truth. 1) Why? My own interpretation is certainly at least as reasonable as the one raised originally. The point being that this particular passage happens to shed little if any light on the question about reincarnation, but rather is dealing with another concept entirely, namely, that of the need for *spiritual* awakening. Regardless of the number of earthlives one passes through, it is only spiritual awakening that can bring liberation and redemption to a human being. The fact that I had not hitherto considered this particular passage has entirely nothing to do with the correctness or lack thereof of my explanation. My explanation is in no way inconsistent with the sense of Christ's explanation: for it is NOT reincarnation in and of itself that brings salvation, but only the necessary *spiritual* awakening or rebirth which can do so. Neither of these concepts excludes the other, but rather are both correct. 2) I myself do not believe in "rejecting without an explanation". It is my own view that *everything* can be explained, although sometimes the explanation is that it is incorrect. That which is true, however, must always make full sense, and need not be ignored nor glossed over in any way, shape or form! Take the need to find justice in the World. The only explanations which can clearly and simply demonstrate the existence of Divine Justice in the World, i.e., in Creation, are exactly those concerning the Law of Sowing and Reaping as well as the concept of reincarnation. Otherwise, one can only say either (1) there is no justice, or (2) we are unable to know and understand the ways of the Lord. But we are meant to know and understand the Will of God in Creation -- this is why we experience His Will made manifest in this Creation, through the Natural Laws thereof! Sowing and Reaping is so easy to observe in the *physical* manifestation that we often fail to realize that this is indeed a Natural Law at work. Thus too, do we often fail to realize that this Law of Sowing and Reaping also applies *equally* much in the *spiritual* sense to our thoughts, words, and deeds. And just herein lies the key to Divine Justice! It may be true that the NT does not record any words of Jesus with respect to this Law of Sowing and Reaping, but I am convinced that He did speak of it, and there are certainly many clear references to it in Scripture. >My curiousity is nearly sastisfied. I have not yet seen your >response to Hebrews 9:27. If I have missed it or you don't care >to continue this on-line, I would appreciate a mail message. I'm >interested in finding out whether your response is of type 1) or >2) from my Contradiction Resolution Strategies above. My response to Hebrews 9:27 showed up here several days ago, so you may have seen it by now. In any case, I think there is a 3rd possibility that you need to add to your "Contradiction Resolution Strategy" list, namely, the fact that the *truth* about any matter will *always* naturally resolve any and all hitherto existing "contradictions". >Could you (or someone) mail me the real name of the grail >messages as I negleted to save the earlier posting that contained >it. I take it you are referring to: the Grail Message, "In the Light of Truth", by Abd-ru-shin. Interested persons can email me for order information. >Jody Richardson | Why is "abbreviated" >joseph@cs.albany.edu | such a long word? Regards, Mark Sandrock -- BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801