Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Whether the female sex is an impediment to receiving Orders? Thomism Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 90 09:20:07 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 61 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: SO MANY WORDS! Cindy, I am not about to argue for or against your Thomas, for I regard him as mostly a harmful influence in the church. There are some things I want to clarify about Scripture. 1 Tim 2:11-15: "A woman should learn in quitness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man' she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved [or kept safe] through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." First, there is not a shred of evidence that Paul is talking about a local custom here. He did not even address a particular church, but Timothy. We do know that he urged Timothy to stay in Ephesus (1:3). He gives an argument that is based, not just on the fall of Adam and Eve, but on order of creation. Adam was formed first, then Eve. In 1 Cor 11:8,9 we also read "For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." In 1 Cor 11 it so happens that he uses the principles derived from on the order of creation to uphold a local custom regarding head-coverings. But in 1 Timothy 2, there is no such custom. The basic principle he uses is stated in 1 Tim 2:11: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission". He also stated this in 1 Cor 14:33: "women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says." Since there is no commandment in the OT that says this, we infer that Paul refers to the writings of the Torah, including the creation story. His reasoning must be the same as he stated in 1 Cor 11 and in 1 Tim 2, namely it is based on the order of creation. The principle in this last passage is the submission. The application has to do with speaking in public assembly of the church. It does not have to do with singing hymns, or other vocal participation in the worship of the church. It makes no sense to say that since 'in Christ, there is neither male nor female', Gal 3:28, that Paul's other statements do not apply. He wrote to Christians in all of these passages, but he still differentiated between men and women. In Galations he is saying that we are all equally 'sons of God' and 'heirs of the promise', i.e., saved. Much of the rest of what you said makes no sense to me because I am not Roman Catholic. Ordination is not a sacrament, and we are all priests (1 Peter 2:5,9). But we are not all pastors, or elders. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran.