Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!crdgw1!greenba From: greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy Subject: Re: Testing Intelligence (Re: Turing Test). Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 90 15:23:24 GMT References: <4832@gara.une.oz.au> <1990Nov30.180650.26648@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <3608@aipna.ed.ac.uk> Sender: news@crdgw1.crd.ge.com Organization: GE Corporate Research & Development Lines: 49 In-reply-to: cam@aipna.ed.ac.uk's message of 5 Dec 90 11:31:10 GMT In article <3608@aipna.ed.ac.uk> cam@aipna.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes: In article greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes: >In article <1990Nov30.180650.26648@watdragon.waterloo.edu> cpshelley@violet.uwaterloo.ca (cameron shelley) writes: > In article greenba@gambia.crd.ge.com (ben a green) writes: > > ... > >reasoning and self awareness in any > >non-trivial senses require language. > > > How do you figure that? Do you mean a mental language? If so, what > do you consider 'mentalese' to be like? >No, not a mental language. An actual, socially derived language. >What is reasoning without talking to oneself, or actually writing to >oneself? We do this all the time when reasoning with tough problems. We also solve lots of tough problems without reasoning linguistic-like at all. Sometimes, e.g. engineering problems, the visualisations can be cast into words afterwards, albeit with difficulty. Sometimes, as with musicians who lack a formal musical education, they can't explain the problem or solution in words at all. People use non-linguistic-like reasoning very succesfully even in very narrow formalisable domains such as chess, as simultaneous lightning chess displays demonstrate. I agree with Chris completely except that the problem solving he describes, I would say, involve intelligence but not reasoning. Several people have posted objections to my comment that reasoning requires language, but they always then jump from "reasoning" to "intelligence". For, I hope, the last time, my position is as follows: Intelligence does not require language. Reasoning does. Cats are intelligent. Cats solve problems. Cats don't reason. If you want to disagree, fine, but please don't misrepresent me. -- Ben A. Green, Jr. greenba@crd.ge.com Speaking only for myself, of course.