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From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Basics of the Forth Language
Message-ID: <2067.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>
Date: 9 Dec 90 23:33:04 GMT
Organization: String, Scotch tape, and Paperclips.  (in Pgh, PA)
Lines: 111

Category 2,  Topic 1
Message 31        Sat Dec 08, 1990
J.SANFORD1                   at 21:03 MST
 
      I have discovered That i can do some simple experiments in learning
Forth with L.Craymers F68K. However from previous experience I expect that
once I try to copy a program I don't completely understand I am in trouble. 
In spite of the large size and compared to what else is avaliable in P.D. this
program is the only one I would recomend to a beginner. Just be carefull to
not attempt to use the parts that are not explained in your text book. Or have
the documentation from Forth Dimentions or etc. When you get stuck, real good,
go on to something else, My stubborness has retarded my progress.  I supose
people have learned to drive on 16 wheelers.
  I suspect the reason this program is in P.D. is so that  advanced
programmers may see how some of the more esoteric ideas that have been
proposed may be consumated on a inexpensive state of the art circa 1987
computer.
      So I encourage advanced Forth programmers to vet it.
      My wildest dreams have lead me to go at GEM with a Assembler. I just
received DevpacST. This may make a difference, as the Manual attempts to clear
some of the fog in the Atari OS. We'll see.
      Brad,   I have a P.D. ICON for the ST  which is behind the back burner.
If you want me to send it to you, leave an address.
      Wilson,  Do we have to wait for Xmas to download? <;->  - jon -*s
          E E     bye
      As you may have noticed I've elected myself a one man cheering section
for Forth on the ST.   As the result of a letter of encouragement to John
Redmond of ForST fame, see last few issues of FD, I've received a letter in
return, 
      He says the ST is not anymore popular in Australia then here, then goes
on to puzlement of the Tramiel's strategy.  I have got that figgured out.  If
you consider Alexis de Tocqueville's statement; " Americans would rather be
equal than free."  And then read a few issues of Dr.Dobbs, Byte ... From the
point of view of someone used to the Atari ST. All the amasing solutions to
problems that wouldn't exist if they haden't gotten involved with
Microsoft,IBM,ATT in the first place. Heh Heh!  Money spent on advertising a
system with only a few small problems is wasted on Real Big Time Problem
Solvers.
      In otherwords ( this is heresy ) maybe the Tramiels' are not stupid!
      Without permission Iam going to Quote part of the letter as appropritate
to this topic.
      "You've summed up the Forth situation very nicely when you said that
beginners will ultimately decide its fate.  I think that was what led me to
start with the local and register variables.  They make coding much less
complex.  Stack pumping has very little to do with what computing is really
about.  In part 4 of the FD series, I make the point, too, that pumping is
very inefficient. The world has very little need for a language that is both
inefficient and hard to understand.  Forth at its worst is harder to follow
than 68000 assembly code.
      Marlin Overson has asked me to document ForST so that it can be put on
GEnie.   I have almost finished this, and expect to send it off before
Christmas.  So, if you are intrested, it should be available by soon in the
new year."  John Redmond .
      This letter caught me in the middle of a veritiable orgy of stack
pumping, ( a new buzz phrase to me ) Inspired by "Why beginners use too many
variables" an article in FD. I can see his point now whereas reading Redmonds'
article the first time didn't sink in. Perhaps "stack pumping" is like
"pumping iron" it builds muscles and impresses young women.       It has
occured to me that since complaining and asking, the Universe has commenced to
shower a multitude of PD Forths for the ST. In return I offer Paintings,
Anyone who has contributed a PD Forth for the ST, is hereby entitled to a Jon
Sanford original. How the transfer will take place is up for discussion. I
just feel like comitting myself at this time.
      A final note; while looking in the Michtron section of GEnie, I saw
mention on  last january that they are also developing a Forth for the ST.
This won't be PD but... interesting.  later - jon - *s   E*s
 E
   b  >    0* ;KI  D   Y^fe  V  <   /wqb +&     
      I have just finished reading 30 messages in this topic, and it has seems
to have gone from what is Forth to history to comparison to other languages to
what makes it special to where is it going.  I was looking for where beginers
are asking questions and the more advanced are explaining stuff.  Nevertheless
it's so interesting Ive got to throw this stuff at it.
      According to Margaret Mead  "The essence of American democracy is the
concept of the creative individual in the creative community participating
freely in the development of his society."
      R.W.Emerson said something to the effect 'Its a problem of our language,
that in order to say something strongly, we must automaticly belie its
opposite.'
      What's special about Forth is that it originated by an act of profound
generosity, And was continued by sucessive acts of cooperation and
unselfishness.
      The survival of Forth, if I may use the Darwininan metafor, is as the
cockroach and small mammals, ubiquitous agility,  the ablity to mutate to fit
the conditions.  The power and glory may never be ours. The infinite loop is
our constant companion.  Am I loosing it? ...
      Ahem!  I never could understand why people say Forth enthusiasts are
Fanitics?
      The hidden strength is in the public domain there are legal mechanations
afoot that may put Forth in a different light as far as small companies and
independent programmers are concerned.
      Besides the Language there is a community of people who have been
attracted to a peculiar way of thinking, "I prefer to do it my way as much as
possible" may be the only thing we all have in common.
      As far as the dificulty of learning Forth is concerned, remember what
Euclid told the King.
      John Waverik  I don't know how to get back on your 4dec90 the
network/heading is criptic gobbdegook. I suppose USnail. ( How are you gona
get em to the post office after they've telecommunicated) 
      It looks like we got in on the middle of some intresting instructional
material.  I think I got the shaft in my early math education because nobody
clearified the difference between a "conventional system of notation" and
"natural laws". *s instructional material 
             E


b1
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