Xref: utzoo alt.folklore.computers:7826 comp.misc:10835 Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!bbn.com!nic!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!chaos!zippy From: zippy@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Patrick Tufts) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.misc Subject: Re: Jargon File Editorial Philosophy Message-ID: Date: 8 Dec 90 04:16:14 GMT References: <1Yh2D8#44K9D41f8QQk5qw1fx64Q7TX=eric@snark.thyrsus.com> <12418@milton.u.washington.edu> Sender: zippy@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Patrick Tufts) Organization: Brandeis University Lines: 85 In-Reply-To: mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU's message of 6 Dec 90 04:35:59 GMT In article <12418@milton.u.washington.edu> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes: In article <1Yh2D8#44K9D41f8QQk5qw1fx64Q7TX=eric@snark.thyrsus.com> eric@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) writes: >ISSUE #1: THE PAST VS. THE PRESENT >I think it would betray the hacker spirit to shackle the Jargon File to its >past. I want today's budding hackers to be able to dive into it and learn >about the culture as it exists *today*. I want to set a precedent for some >bright-eyed youngster around the year 2000 to be able to honorably retire >some of the slang *I* added from his/her version 3 for the excellent reason >that it's no longer `live'. "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." If possible, I would like to bring in slang and folklore from the 1960's, NOT delete it or relegate it to an appendix (for later deletion). The world is ill-served by censoring stuff that some Winston Smith thinks can be "retired." [fx: indignant huffing] :-) After all, EMACS came from the world which you seem to be so eager to bury and forget. It is significant that it came from that world and not from the Unix world. >ISSUE #3: INCLUDE MORE FOLKLORE? >What do I do about this kind of material? Include it in appendices? *This* is the stuff that belongs in appendices, not lexical entries. >ISSUE #4: PROPER-NAME ENTRIES > >Some jargon-file entries refer to the user or full names of hackers who are >now or were at some time famous. Once again, deletion of history ill-serves the future. A lot of valuable 1950's and 1960's hacker history has been *lost* forever because of attitudes such as yours. All your fault, Eric, for being so thoughtless as to take on a thankless job that involves, (dare I say it?) ... _editing_ If you're concerned about history being lost, why not coordinate a netwide history file? Flaming Eric won't do you any good. Folks, this is the `jargon' file, not the arcana file. I too want to see the history, the stories, and the old terms preserved. However, they should only be used in the main body of the dictionary if they provide context that is necessary to understanding a particular entry. Certainly, a dictionary should have etymologies. But to say that a collection of jargon - current technical slang - should contain things that have died off defeats the purpose of the file. [discussion about famous people being removed, eric wonders [if he should invest in asbestos. Marc says yes >This question has a sharper bite for me than it might because I'd already >had more influence on the culture than most even before I started editing >the file. It all depends upon what area of the "culture" you are talking about. I've been famous on the net for 15 years, although not as much in the Unix world. I prefer not to brag about my past accomplishments though. Uh huh. Let's see what mrc has to say in ``the Hacker's Dictionary'': [basic personal bio] ``My BMW 320i's license plate is...'' ^^^ ^^^^ Nope, no bragging there :-) Personally, I've never heard of some of the entries you added; nor has anyone else I've talked to. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be in there; but it does indicate that you should not be taking such a superior tone. [fx: huffing loud enough to qualify as obscene.] _____ | ____ ___|___ /__ Mark ("Gaijin") Crispin "Gaijin! Gaijin!" --Pat