Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!uokmax!munnari.oz.au!ariel!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!u3364521
From: U3364521@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (Lou Cavallo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: A European point of view (LONG)
Message-ID: <1362@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au>
Date: 7 Dec 90 08:09:06 GMT
References: <1990Dec6.185453.5684@cbnewsk.att.com> <1990Dec6.201824.13502@Neon.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: I.A.E.S.R., Melbourne University
Lines: 106

G'day,

{This is *long* ... quit now or forever hold your peace. :-)}

Marc Espie (espie@ibis.Stanford.EDU) writes:

* There has been an ongoing ``discussion'' about bad programming,
* [...]
* 
* I've seen the RKMs cost something like $30 each around here ?  Well,
* DOUBLE that price for France (importation material). That begins to

That's my experience here in Australia but as they are in English the
accessability language wise is no problem.  They are expensive.

I do not think Australian programmers have any reputation for ``bad''
programming practices.

* [...]
* I don't want just to be a critic. I think some things might be done.
* First of all, Commodore might get a contract to get the RKM translated
* in French/German, other languages (speaking for my own friends, here).

I hope that CBM can do this.  It may indeed be part of it's strategy
even now but perhaps they are not telling us.

Perhaps Dr. Peter Kittel (I hope I remember your name correctly) can
comment on the German perspective, for example?

I believe that at least one CBM product, AmigaVision, will have some
internalisation added to it.  Perhaps CBM technical documentation is
just as important?

* [...]
* There is a second, most unexpensive thing to do. Add something like 10
* pages to every documentation distributed with every amiga, explaining
* what you can do if you want to be OS-friendly, and what you can't...
* (like the first pages of the RKM). SAY EVERYTHING. Be technical when
* necessary, tell people that you ARE technical. The average user won't
* read it. The would-be programmer will remember it is here, and won't
* break the OS for the sake of it.  Also, if you do it carefully, you
* might be able to change the point of view of Joe User. Make
* badly-written programs look BAD. Make Joe realize that recognizing a
* second-floppy, or a memory-expansion is EASY, and there is NO EXCUSE
* for not doing it. Of course, WRITE THESE PAGES IN FRENCH, GERMAN, or
* any other local language (russian, chinese :-)).  Once again, this
* doesn't give you any money, but this has a big potential effect.

I really like that idea and it in fact reminds me of some tips that I
recall seeing in the "monthly" posting to comp.sys.amiga.tech by CBM
CATS employees.

* [...]
* If other people from other countries have further comments (what is the
* situation in your home country ?), that surely can be interesting.

I have met *one* self professed cracker, he claimed to be an ex-member
of a known `Pirating' (well cracking/distributor) group.  His attitude
wrt this activity seemed to be of great respect for the programming in
this sphere of activities.  Assembler programming was important (and I
believe his first language, he was learning C). {I'm reporting this as
a `dis-interested' bystander.  I suspected on a personal level that he
was the type who would proceed to better programming practices and I'm
of the opinion that he was a very competent type.}

As will be no doubt the norm every where most Australian programmers I
have met .. or contacted electronically..seem to be so called ``good''
programmers in that they spout RKM calls with ease. :-)

* If you think my ``solution'' is not a good one, propose another one...
* This is just a starting point, I am none too good at finding solutions.

No, in fact, I urge this discussion to proceed and try to determine a
list of suggestions that may perhaps be presented to various CBM arms,
such as representatives for the various international CBM headquarters
world wide.

I suggest that your idea of a `legal coding style guide' is as useful
in English as for any other language and should not be overlooked for
English speaking countries either.

*     Marc
* espie@flamingo.stanford.edu, espie@dmi.ens.fr

Two last comments to offer to this (long, sorry!) followup.

1. What sort of/how good is the User group support overseas? {It is
   possible to borrow programming books here in Australia. Dare one
   say in fact that CBM Aus tech support is not as good as it could
   be, apparently. Programming self help groups are popular here, I
   believe (IMHO).}

2. What does Apple {AH, HANG HIM I HEAR THEM SAY! Sorry :-)} do to
   promote their own form of programming advice?  I believe that it
   is apochryphal (sp?) wrt how important the coding style/practice
   of Mac applications is to Apple.  {Please Mac or Amiga fans I am
   not trying to start *another* religious war. If you wish to post
   a flame try alt.computers.religion which I do read/post to.}

I've finally found a thread to participate in that is *NOT* one of
the "NeXT vs Godzilla" or "Hitler was a net.hacker.badguy" type.

:-)

yours truly,
Lou Cavallo.