Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!ccut!wnoc-tyo-news!dclsic!sjc!spider!leia!harkcom From: harkcom@potato.pa.Yokogawa.Co.jp (Alton Harkcom) Newsgroups: comp.edu Subject: Re: Against educational fads Message-ID: Date: 15 Dec 90 16:31:04 GMT References: <9426:Dec1315:38:2390@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> <26567:Dec1403:56:2390@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> Sender: news@leia.pa.yokogawa.co.jp Organization: Yokogawa Electric Corporation, Tokyo, Japan. Lines: 128 In-reply-to: brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu's message of 14 Dec 90 03:56:23 GMT In article <26567:Dec1403:56:2390@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: =}> For the 'educated' portion of the population who will have to present =}> ideas which can be interpreted by others, it is important. =} =}This includes scientists, businessmen, etc. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that, please give the rest of us the benefit of a doubt... But lets look at things realistically. How many scientists, businessmen or even educators actually produce any writings that serve anyone outside of these professions. The minority that do are spread very thin throughout history. =}I agree with everything except the ``yet'' clause. Do you seriously =}believe that T. C. Mits cares one whit about typing? Yes I do. I know more people who have to deal with keyboards and keypads than with a pencil. But that is just my experience, yours may be different. That's why I'm entitled to my opinion and you to yours... =}> To those people, writing =}> skills (creative, not copying) would be considered less important than =}> than typing skills. =} =}Absolutely not. The largest class of people for whom typing is of the =}most importance is secretaries, and there are many more businessmen and =}scientists than secretaries. Secretaries, huh? Your world view is mighty narrow... There are a myriad of people in other professions (C Store managers, fast food restaurant managers and the like far outnumber scientists, businessmen, and seceretaries, just to name a few) who have to cope with typing almost every day in their work, yet have no need for doing any creative writing... They may have to do a lot of 'creative thinking' to get the books to balance though... =}You continue with this idea that programming is actually important to a =}noticeable percentage of the population. What world do you live in? The real world, not an academic one... Look at the number of programmable appliances and such on the market. With the market going the way it is, the "keyboard is mightier than the pen" may become a popular phrase... =}> (But a quick glance at most documentation shows that writing =}> skills weren't 'studied' as hard as programming skills were. Myself =}> included ;-) =} =}Huh? Are you actually admitting that writing skills are even important =}for (gasp) programmers? Writing skills are important for anyone who wants to be a contributing member of society. Typing skills are important for anyone who wants to be recognized as a contributing member of society or who wants to be able to survive in the coming 'electronic world'. "No matter how much prose I recite to this damned machine, it won't make me breakfast..." =}> In article <8619:Dec1314:03:4290@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> =}> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: =}> =}Hopefully not. It is hellishly useful to organize revisions into =}> =}separate drafts. =}> I find it quite a burden to keep revisions in seperate drafts. =} =}Fine, that's your problem. For the rest of us, Strawman and friends will =}remain useful abstractions. For the rest of the people who feel as you do, then that is so. For the rest of the people who feel as I do, then it is just your opinion... Can't you accept the fact that there are people who don't agree with you and may be correct in there opinion? =}> I agree that typing skills do not dimish the importance of good writing =}> skills. I also believe that good writing skills do not diminish the =}> importance of good typing skills. They both have their importance and =}> IMHO are equally important to the majority of the people (with writing =}> skills taking the lead in the 'rat race') =} =}Are you in touch? It's not a rat race. It's not even close. Speaking of touch, aren't you being a bit rude in your replies. By 'rat race' I meant the 'publish or perish' and 'document til-u-die' participants in the 'educated community'... =}> But Russell's analogy fails!?! =} =}Hardly. The minor differences you point out do not affect the form of =}the analogy, which is: ``Convenience can push Action over the threshold =}between a pain and a joy. So what? That doesn't diminish the importance =}of [learning to do] Action well.'' The minor differnces I point out give the correct relationships between the topics of discussion. Russell's analogy fails to do so... The correct analogy should be "If your goal is Action then you must learn to do the action well and convenience does nothing to aid in this. If action[1] and action[2] are important in accomplishing Action then you should learn to do both actions well." It is my opinion that to survive in the modern world and prepare for the future(Action), action[1] and action[2] (writing and typing) are BOTH important to succeed. It seems to be your opinion that for the same Action, action[1] is important and action[2] is not very important. Only tim will tell which of these is 'correct'. =} I sure hope you understand that mere =}conveniences pale beside essentials. I sure hope that you understand that you are speaking to a well educated human being and not an ignorant low-life as you seem to imply. I also hope that you understand that typing skills are essential in making posts to the net and writing skills seem to be a convenience (though they should be considered essential). In peace, Al "Open your eyes, open your mind, open your heart; but try to keep the other parts closed when you can" -- Anon --