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From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: 1990 FORML
Message-ID: <2075.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>
Date: 9 Dec 90 23:33:22 GMT
Organization: String, Scotch tape, and Paperclips.  (in Pgh, PA)
Lines: 60

Category 5,  Topic 16
Message 21        Sun Dec 09, 1990
F.SERGEANT [Frank]           at 14:53 CST
 
 Dennis,
  Yes, I survived and enjoyed it.  No, driving all over southern  California
looking for you only accounts for a small part of my  fatigue, and the food
and conversation were well worth it.
 .
 The alligator was not alive but I think it was not dead either.  I  believe
it was a rubber toy.  Was it really Len and not Glen?  I could  have sworn ...
It was indeed a pun on "allocator" and I laughed so  hard I guess I couldn't
remember who did it.  Yes, Mitch's singing was  very good.  Of course, if I
couldn't tell Len from Glen, maybe I have  Mitch confused with Pavarotti.
 .
 Regarding the "first language" issue, I'm beginning to regret opening  my big
mouth.  Probably you and I ARE thinking of the same person.  I  don't even say
he is wrong in any way.  I omitted a name, as I am not  criticizing his
decision or opinion.  I went into this in more detail  in a previous message. 
I'm just saying I've gotta feeling.  And, my  feeling's that it's a sign.  And
that it ain't a good sign.
 .
 However, many people have been responding to the entirely different  question
of whether Forth is the best 1st language (perhaps for a  child).  Do they
seriously mean a beginning programmer (child or not)  should NOT be allowed to
crash the system from the start?  (And learn  it isn't the end of the world.) 
As an aside, "save early and often" is  better learned early, with relatively
unimportant work, I think.  And,  teaching one's own child anything
intentionally is a brave undertaking.   One of my favorite jokes - I don't
understand why it has made people so  angry with me - is to teach them how to
change bases, using HEX DECIMAL  OCTAL, etc and then ask them to tell me what
base they are in by typing  BASE ?   Of course they get the answer "10"
regardless of the base, and  it is perfectly correct.  This tickles me to no
end, but my "victims"  don't seem to think it is funny at all.  Oh well. 
Regardless of the  1st language for a child, I am probably not the 1st choice
as his  teacher!
 .
 Regarding your preference for the MASM format, remember we are talking  about
generating a new kernel for a new processor rather than  generating something
to run on a PC.  And really, you should have heard  what Richard Haskell went
through porting eforth to a 68000 using MASM.   I forget the details, but they
even included writing a special program  in F-PC to fix something or other. 
The point I got was that it was not  straight forward and it was not easy. 
But, be my guest.  Anyone who  wishes to do it the MASM way has my full
permission.  If and when it  becomes appropriate I'll be glad to say I told
you so.  Note I am not  discussing how a master Forth gen'r should gen his own
Forth, just  expressing my opinion that "eforth's" OWN goals are ill served by
the  MASM approach.  I'm just trying to help by criticizing anything that 
moves.
 .
 Furthermore, I think Mitch has a VERY interesting point when he says 
 .
 MB>Does it bother anybody besides me that, with eForth distributed in 
 MB>MASM, Bill Gates stands to make money on Forth too, and worse yet, 
 MB>on Forth used on non-80x86 processors?
 .
 -- Frank
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