Path: utzoo!attcan!telly!problem!compus!lethe!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!midway!gargoyle!igloo!learn
From: learn@igloo.scum.com (Bill HMRP Vajk)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: No-knock searches (Was Re: "Bad" backups)
Message-ID: <3097@igloo.scum.com>
Date: 15 Dec 90 07:28:33 GMT
References: <5081@trantor.harris-atd.com> <2575@cod.NOSC.MIL>
Organization: Igloo, Public access Unix, Northbrook IL
Lines: 68

In article <2575@cod.NOSC.MIL>  Joe Lalor writes:

> If you maliciously try to conceal data (regardless of the how clever
> your means are) to hinder an ongoing law-enforcement investigation,
> you're breaking the law.
 
> Encrypting data with a secret password (done all the time in military    
> labs) is okay as long as you are not doing it to obstruct justice.
> Taking the fifth, IMHO, in the above scenario could leas to contempt.
 
You're all welcome to as much speculation as you wish, it is mere speculation. 
It is a judge, perhaps a jury, who will actually decide. And then there are 
possible appeals, by the prosecution or the defense. Seems that there isn't 
always the desired satisfaction at the first level.

The reality includes both good and evil intentions of a whole slew of people,
starting with the lowest levels of enforcement and progressing through an
entire system such as clerical help to prosecutors. Essentially all one has
to do is capture the imagination of one of these people in a negative way
and you're bound to be charged with something "illegal." After all, that is
thir job, to prosecute. Some do it better than others, some do it more often
than others.

Did you ever notice that none of them ever seems to have a "dry spell ?"

Consider just how difficult it is to avoid breaking a law these days. We've
had a couple of hundred years of making laws, and repealing or replacing
darned few. Have you ever taken over the counter cough medication and driven ? 
Not to suggest that you are impaired, but should you make any errors in driving,
and the officer making the traffic stop sees a jar in your posession, it is 
highly likely that you'll be charged with DUI and taken for a chemical screening
at a nearby hospital. In Illinois, at least, you'll probably need to come up 
with a 300 dollar bond, wait 4 hours before getting your car back from the 
pound, and pay the pound's towing fee ( $60 on up. ) Next, you'll need to
acquire an attorney, as most judges today will not permit you to handle your
own affairs. If you take a count of the public defender pleas, you'll notice
that for the most part, the high incidence of guilty pleas at the first stage
in court, the arraignment. So flaunt the fact that you drank a bit of cough
medicine, drive, and you'll shell out several hundred dollars to purchase
justice.

Craig Niedorf's defense, for traansmitting suspicious seeming though almost
freely available information, interstate, with a trial of less than 4 days, is 
reputed to have cost him over $100,000. In spite of this outcome, the Atlanta
Three who plead guilty to computer charges which also happened to involve the
E-911 file established as easily available by legitimate means, were further
damaged by the prosecutor (in his sentencing memorandum to the judge) by a
impugned value associated with that document.

This is a serious newsgroup. We are discussing and dealing with some pretty
serious issues here. I, for one, am getting tired of seeing these childish
responses. Instead of worrying about concealing data from law enforcement, it 
might be better to deal in a sober manner with model laws defining what 
illegal data is, what proprietary means, what protections are offered by 
copyrights, and how value is established. I am also concerned that one's
private thoughts, if in a diary or on computer media, are also evidence
against one when the pretext in common law is that an individual shall not
be convicted from his own mouth.

I have a hunch that the best possible use of this newsgroup is to consider 
these and other issues in an orderly fashion, and offer to the EFF the best 
ideas we have in such regards. We've seemingly placed a lot of eggs in that 
basket called EFF, and there are some of you handling that basket pretty 
roughly at the moment.

Thanks in advance.

Bill Vajk