Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!turnkey!orchard.la.locus.com!fafnir.la.locus.com!fafnir.la.locus.com!dlt From: dlt@locus.com (Dan Taylor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga Subject: Re: Sorry Guys, There is NO WAY! Keywords: AMIGA 3000 vs NEXT Message-ID: Date: 11 Dec 90 01:31:58 GMT References: <14701@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> <21993@well.sf.ca.us> <16588@brahms.udel.edu> <22047@well.sf.ca.us> Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California Lines: 158 >The questions just keep on coming, so here are some more questions and answers: >>Where's the NeXT SVR4? >SVR4 doesn't exist as finished product. SVR4 is what is keeping the Amiga >3000ux from going into official release. BSD Unix is just fine, thank you. >And Mach is arguably the most advanced kernel around today (even taking SVR4 >into account). Having spent years debugging the student project code in bsd, I take serious exception to your comment "BSD Unix is just fine, thank you.". While bsd has some nice features, like sockets, and the history and job control of csh, it is also full of ideas that don't make it in the "real world". Small-block and variable-block-size filesystems end up wasting CPU time and disk space, for instance. The lack of error checking, and handling, makes bsd too buggy and vulnerable for commercial use. No commercial company is seriously advocating real bsd, rather, they include many of the features in their kernels. SysVr4 has sockets, and ksh has history and job control. (personally, I prefer a windowing environment) The companies that have been shipping real bsd, like DEC (not Sun), have now migrated to OSF. I'm glad you said "arguably", when refering to Mach. I have tried a "cube", and I believe that the SysVr4 kernel/environment will be more productive, for more people, than the Mach kernel/bsd environment. With curses, for serial terminals, and X, for graphical devices, SysVr4 has superior user interface capabilities, compared to bsd. And the ability to mount "foriegn" filesystems means that SysVr4 can take advantage of any real advances in filesystem technology. "Threads" can be simulated, although it's incredibly ugly to do so, but modules on Streams can perform nearly the same functions. >>Where's the NeXT Video Toaster? >The NeXT has the NeXTDimension. NeXTDimension is more like DeluxePaint, than Video Toaster. A Toaster- equipped Amiga is really the equivalent of a $100,000 video production system. You really should see the Toaster, if you are interested in video, or before making spurious comparisons. >>Where's the large NeXT installed user base? >I write software for the NeXT because I believe it will achieve a large user >base. It is still a machine in its infancy in terms of the marketplace. >Also the success of the NeXT is not measured in the numbers used for PCs. >The Amiga has a user base of 2,000,000 (according to one poster). If NeXT >were to achieve this figure, it would control 100% of the low-end workstation >market. If Jobs can maintain the agressive pricing, and still satisfy the profit requirements of the people who put up the money, NeXT will have a serious share of the market. However, since the low-end workstation market is already crowded with SysV 386's and 486's, a few A/UX Macs, lots of SPARC SLCs (with cheap, usable clones coming), and even some SysV Amigas, NeXT will be lucky to get 10% of the low-end market (betcha a nickel). I don't believe, as much as I like my Amiga, that it will be one the the high-share systems, either. Probably the (yuck) SPARCs will share it with the (yuck) 486s at about 40% each. >>What NeXT hardware is there with multiprocessing capabilities. >I assume you mean "parallel processing." The NeXT, thanks to Unix, is a >multiprocessing computer. As for "parallel processing," NeXT has yet to >take advantage of the parallel processing capabilities inherent in Mach. >But there is some talk about a parallel processing NeXT by the end of this >year. We're talking multiple 040s on one board running in concert. Some Amiga owners don't realize that the NeXT isn't a fancy Mac, and that Mach isn't a variant of Finder. I'm looking forward to well-integrated specialized processors, like vector, graphics, DSP, array, and neural, than multi-processing. Even Mach is still somewhat I/O-bound, so more processors just would wait for I/O faster. And two, three, or four '040s probably aren't going to have enough work to do, except in cases where a specialized processor could do the job better. Check your system stats for the real utilization of the CPU. >>Where is the inexpensive software? >Much of the most useful software for the NeXT comes free with the machin: >a commercial quality wordprocessor, a revolutionary spreadsheet, the >Digital Librarian, Interface Builder, Mathematica (for educational buyers), >etc. NeXT software is comparable to Mac software in pricing. There are >exceptions of course. There are outrageously priced high-end software >packages for workstations and there are great low-price deals to educational >buyers. Lighthouse Design is selling their Diagram! program for $10 to >students. It retails for $249 (yes, you save $239! if you're a student). >Informix is selling Wingz with better than a 50% discount to students >. I think the figure is something like $150 for a product that retails at >$700. There are over a half dozen ftp sites for NeXT freeware/shareware. >Check out cs.orst.edu and nova.cc.purdue.edu in particular (I'm not sure >about the purdue net address). The "most useful" software you describe has a limited, but loyal following. Those of us no longer in the university, either as students or faculty, don't see much of special interest. (nor do we get the good prices) The word processor is OK, but no big deal. Wingz is nice, too. Actually, though, Interface Builder is no better than several of the Amiga and Mac window generators, and you're limited, at least when I looked, to Objective C, which doesn't make code as good as an experienced, competent programmer would. >>Any third-party software to plug into the expansion slots of those few >>NeXTs which actually have them? >There's the Ariel QuintProcessor which gives you five additional DSP chips >on one board. There is Cube Digital I/O which gives you 64 channels of >digital I/O, a Centronics-compatible parallel port, and other goodies. >There's the Dazzl Model16/12 Analog to Digital Converter. There are also >many products that take adge of the built-in NeXT DSP port, the two >serial ports, the new SCSI-2 port, the built-in thin and twisted-pair >Ethernet, the mic jack AND built-in mic, et al. I think you answered the question he MEANT to ask. Although, I can't think of any "wonderful" hardware for the E-net connectors. >>The NeXT Fred Fish collection? >Don't know what this is. PD and shareware. You answered this above. >>All-NeXT trade shows? >None of these yet. But we do get to see Steve Jobs special brand of dog and >pony shows :-). I once asked a NeXT rep why I should buy a cube, instead of an A3000. His reply? "We have Steve." And that's the only answer he could come up with. >>Mac or PC emulation >SoftPC 2.0 claims to be 100% AT-compatible and claims to run MS-DOS software >at 12-16 MHz 286 speeds. Not bad for an emulator, eh? As for Mac emulation, >I don't think anyone's working on it. Heck, I ran a 2.5MHz-equiavalent XT on a box-stock 7MHz 68000 in my A1000. >>How about an inexpensive version that everyone can afford? >The NeXT is not a low-end PC. Do you want to play games, or do you want a >workstation? At any rate, for $3000-$3500, a student can buy a NeXT for the >price of a Mac SE/30 and less than the price of the Amiga 3000ux. >Of course, I'd also love to see a PC-priced NeXT. But there's a price you >pay for power and features. It's not the machine for everyone. But it is >the machine I'm buying. I think you really missed the point, here. I can run (well, walk) programs on an A500, when you don't have a lot of money to spend, then move up to a more powerful model, without loss of functionality. So, my modeling program may take DAYS, instead of hours, but I can still run the model. NeXT lacks a $1000-1500 entry-level system. -- * Dan Taylor * The opinions expressed are my own, and in no way * * dlt@locus.com * reflect those of Locus Computing Corporation. *