Xref: utzoo comp.sys.amiga:74429 alt.religion.computers:2223 Path: utzoo!utgpu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!caen!umich!sharkey!msuinfo!rang From: rang@cs.wisc.edu (Anton Rang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga,alt.religion.computers Subject: Re: A3000UX competition Message-ID: Date: 14 Dec 90 18:21:53 GMT References: <16482@cbmvax.commodore.com> <29400:Dec1405:54:4990@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> Sender: news@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu Organization: UW-Madison CS department Lines: 81 In-Reply-To: brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu's message of 14 Dec 90 05:54:49 GMT In article <29400:Dec1405:54:4990@kramden.acf.nyu.edu> brnstnd@kramden.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) writes: >Ah, yes, VMS. Another not-perfect OS. (Hi Greg.) >VMS, where the equivalent of ``make'' doesn't even come with the system. True. It probably should, but hey, DEC's in business to make money, and right now they've decided that they can make more by forcing their users to buy it separately. This will change in the future the instant they decide that their profits will go up by including it as part of the base VMS package to attract customers. >VMS, where you can buy an idle daemon for just $695 that UNIX users get >for free off a source group. You can buy idle daemons for UNIX systems, too. There's at least 6 "watchdog" type programs on the DECUS tapes; there's a ton of public-domain VMS software around. You don't see it as much on USENET for the obvious reason that USENET is primarily UNIX machines. >VMS, where DEC desperately tries to get its customers to install patches >for security holes that are letting a virus run rampant through nearly >every networked VMS machine in the world. Excuse me? Which security hole would this be? There's a few around, but I haven't seen a serious one which has let in a virus of sorts, except for sites which leave open unprotected network accounts (kinda like leaving open a plain UUCP account). Overall, I'd say that most VMS systems are more secure than UNIX ones, but not necessarily because of the OS--because most sites running VMS care more about security. Besides, if you want to pick on VMS for a network security problem, you could at least mention that UNIX has had the sendmail and finger bugs fixed so that *that* virus can't get around. (And there are plenty of sites out there which haven't fixed it yet....) >VMS, where just one vendor has control, and will continue to set >outrageous prices through next century. True. >Now that's a cost-effective, secure operating system. It's got the potential to be more secure than most off-the-shelf UNIX versions today, I think. Why? Because it provides some tools (like access control lists and [optionally] file classification levels) that make it easier to give people limited privilege in a relatively safe way. That doesn't mean there aren't secure UNIXes out there (there certainly are). Cost-effective? It depends on what you need it for. If you need to use an application which runs only under VMS, it's infinitely more cost-effective than UNIX. If you want to develop software in C, UNIX is very likely more cost-effective. If you want to develop COBOL or Ada software, for instance, you have to start looking carefully at the different options the OSes and compilers give you. >> Why do >> most businesses with VAXen run VMS? It's very expensive and does not >> come with any source. Because it's easy to configure, is well supported >> and doesn't require a Unix kernel hacker to support it? It's considerably easier to configure and support than Unix is, at least all Unixes I've seen, though I've heard the new AIX version isn't bad for configurability (comments?). But I think the real reasons lots of businesses run VMS are (a) it existed before UNIX was widely available, and there's a lot of software they can't afford to port; and (b) it provides functionality that current VAX UNIX versions don't (volume shadowing and multiple volume sets, for instance). >So why do you think this [the UNIX/Ultrix incursion] happens? >Because VMS is so cost-effective and superior, right? Because VMS was at nearly 100% of the VAX market, and UNIX has its own set of attractions (portability not the least)? When you start out with 100% of market share, you don't really expect to stay there if somebody else (or you :-) start making a competitor.... Anton +---------------------------+------------------+-------------+ | Anton Rang (grad student) | rang@cs.wisc.edu | UW--Madison | +---------------------------+------------------+-------------+