Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!ucsd!nosc!crash!pro-graphics.cts.com!bobl
From: bobl@pro-graphics.cts.com (Bob Lindabury, SysAdmin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga
Subject: Re: 24 bit color boards
Message-ID: <6334@crash.cts.com>
Date: 15 Dec 90 02:56:11 GMT
Sender: root@crash.cts.com
Lines: 75

76004.1771@compuserve.com (Ben Williams) writes:

> Next, neither the toaster nor DCTV are 24 bit _output_. What you see
> is the issue here, not what is going on where you can't see. 
> The HAM-E also represents it's data in 24 bits internally; 
> output images in the HAM-E mode are mixtures of 18 and 24 bit data. 
> I don't think that makes the HAM-E 24 bit; although it does give it
> the ability to have a better image than any composite signal.

The 24 bit output debate is mute if you are going to video as a final
product as we do.  We do all our work for video productions so I have
a biased opinion.  I also have no need for 24-bit output.  Others do I'm
sure.  I have a need to manipulate up to 24-bit deep images in real-time
(as in painting on) in a frame buffer for output to video.  I currently
use the TrueVision TARGA products to do this.  The TARGA and VISTA 
products represent true 24-bit frame buffer devices to me.

> I've had the opportunity to sit next to a Toaster for 3 days, running
> lightwave, just generally mucking about with it. Output images
> occasionally approached the HAM-E's quality, but ONLY when they were
> lightly colored - the monochrome rez of the Toaster is reasonably high.

Again, not an issue if your output is designed for and going to videotape
anyway, as mine is.  As a sidenote, I found that ToasterPaint was less than
acceptable to my needs also.  I find it annoying to have to work on an image
in HAM mode (yech!) and then send it to the buffer to see what I had done.
I think this is rediculous even if it is required by the Toaster.  I'm use to
painting in something like TIPS or Lumina where you work right on the 24-bit
canvas like you would in any normal paint program.  This is a requirement for
an artist as far as I am concerned.

> DCTV does not modulate the signal with 24 bits of data. So, even 
> taking into account the damage done by NTSC encoding, it never 
> _was_ 24 bits. I don't know if this applies to the Toaster.

I am unfamiliar with DCTV as it hasn't been released yet.  The only contact
I've had with it is at shows and it doesn't conform to my idea of what a
24-bit board/frame-buffer is.

> If saving images in 24 bit was the point upon which they all turned, 
> as your message seems to imply, then the HAM-E would be a 24 
> bit system, because we do all our manipulations in 24 bits.

Actually, it's not just saving or reading 24-bit images.  I feel that it
has to do with manipulating and displaying as well as saving and reading
24-bit deep images be the output in RGB or NTSC.  Just because I output
composite video (NTSC) from my TARGA 16 doesn't mean that it's not a 16-bit
frame-buffer.

> I am NOT saying this is so; I'm just putting it this way to show 
> you that your conclusion isn't clearly indicated. - Ben

Yes, I've made a few mistakes and I would like to retract the statement about
the DpaintIII brushes.  While they do work with the grid on, there are still
some pretty major limitations that affect the way I would use the device and
Dpaint.  The limitations outweigh the advantages (in my opinion <grin>) for
using the HAM_E device for 2D work.

I find that the HAM_E may well be worth 5 times it's cost when working with
images rendered from a 3D appliaction however.  I think that the ability to
animate in real-time a full 8-bit (256 color) ray-traced image makes the
HAM_E a valuable device as long as we can get it to lock up to our edit suite.

We will be connecting it to a Magni today to find out what the story is as
far as genlocking goes.

-- Bob

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