Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!rex!uflorida!bikini!bb From: bb@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Brian Bartholomew) Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp Subject: Re: Questions about HPUX 8.0, X11R4, HP policy Message-ID: Date: 15 Dec 90 09:45:28 GMT References: <1990Dec13.100152@dali.gatech.edu> <8599@dog.ee.lbl.gov> Sender: news@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Organization: /cis/lightning0/bb/.organization Lines: 113 In-reply-to: milburn@me10.lbl.gov's message of 14 Dec 90 20:25:24 GMT ATTRIBUTIONS: >> = mikeg@dali.gatech.edu (Mike Gourlay) > = milburn@me10.lbl.gov (John Milburn) ----- SMOKE SCREENS OBSCURING "REAL COST OF OWNERSHIP": >> I hear that HPUX 8.0 will be shipped out in June or July. I also hear >> that X11R4 will be send with it. That is, if you have `software >> support.' > HPUX rev 8.0 will indeed be a major upgrade to the operating system, > and as such, HP deserves to recoup the investment they put into it. > The mechanism for this is the software support contract I believe the mechanism for this is the "Operating System Purchase Price". If the ownership and use of a HP workstation over a five year lifespan will cost you xx dollars in OS upgrades ("Software Support"), than that number should play a part in the purchase price computations. >> Why does HP consider fixing their software bugs (called an update of >> the OS) something for which you have to pay big money for a support >> contract? It is unfair. If you pay for UNIX, you should get UNIX, >> and not have to pay incrementally to have HP give you UNIX over a >> period of time. It isn't as if the machine was inexpensive up front. >> The new versions are bug fixes. That is not right. > I agree with you to a certain extent. If you buy an hp box, with rev > 6.x, you should be provided with bug fixes to that revision of the OS > free of charge. However, if you choose not to purchase a support > contract, you have no inherent right to future major releases. I find > the cost of HP support contracts to be very reasonable, particularly > the material only level of support. Again, if the ownership of a workable Operating System requires you to purchase "Software Support" as one of its components, then consider it part of the purchase price. If true, then this implies that "HP-UX" without "Software Support" is not a workable option. > HP bundles a subset of X with their systems, along with some hp > enhancements, like mwm and hpterm. How much extra cost and effort would it cost HP to port the rest of the MIT X goodies, and ship them out as part of theier X distribution? Another $30 tape? How hard can it be to finish the job? > If you don't want what hp give you for free, or want more, get it > from MIT. Free (cough, cough)? See above paragraphs. Incidently, Sun is joining the ranks of the foolish vendors by threatening to unbundle the C compiler from SunOS. One of UNIX's strengths has always been its opportunities for symbiosys between tools - something that is hard to demonstrate as existing to a non-programmer (like a manager contemplating a workstation purchase). ----- COST OF "UNIQUE" SOFTWARE: >> It isn't as if HPUX is not the most incompatible port of UNIX and X on >> the planet. It most certainly is NOT that new versions of the OS are >> improvements to UNIX. >> Motif is nice, but the other bugs and left-outs of HP's version of X >> on HPUX are not worth it. X should be compilable from the >> distribution at MIT, and so capable people should be able to compile >> X11R4 without waiting for the newest distribution from HP. > Many people have done this. Put a dollar value on the effort (time = money) to track down, upgrade, port, and otherwise bring HP-UX up to snuff with what you could purchase from other vendors. Add it to the purchase price. ----- SALES REPRESENTATIVE PROBLEMS: >> My local HP rep was confused when I told her I knew of people with >> X11R4 on an HP. She seems to think that it hasn't been released yet. > Your rep is certainly uninformed, particularly with respect to PD > software under hp-ux. This is a common problem, as most hp sales reps > have no knowledge of the vast community of networked machines in the > world. Try to get one to exchange e-mail with you! >> My local rep blaimed it on inherent incompatibilities in UNIX. > Again, your local rep is uninformed. This is, I believe, a major > problem with hp. The sales reps are (severe generalization here) > remarkably unfamiliar with the systems they sell. Here we have two more peoples' experiences with non-knowledgable sales reps. Didn't the "Open Letter to HP" do any good? Come on, HP, get with the program. You seem to be able to do very well with Lab equipment support; what is so terribly different about workstations? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!mathlab.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@math.ufl.edu -- "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Bartholomew UUCP: ...gatech!uflorida!mathlab.math.ufl.edu!bb University of Florida Internet: bb@math.ufl.edu