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From: Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: SUBS SINK TRAWLERS
Message-ID: <1990Dec12.032517.11914@cbnews.att.com>
Date: 12 Dec 90 03:25:17 GMT
Sender: military@cbnews.att.com (William B. Thacker)
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From: Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr
>Since 1969 it is believed that submarines operating in the Irish Sea
>and out of the Scottish coast have been causing fish-trawlers to sink.
The major problem in this region (The Irish Sea -- between Ireland and The
English coast) is that from a sub driver's perspective it is VERY shallow, the
area is litterally crawling with trawlers fom a number of nations, and the
major british sub bases are stuck right in the middle of the whole mess.

(I'm working from memory here please forgive any inaccuracies)
There have been a number of sudden disparitions of ships in the region, and
not just little tubs with 2-4 men on them. I remember stories a year or two
ago on the sudden disparition of a french trawler with 25 men on board which
went under on a clear day with amost no waves, other trawlers which found
themselves being stopped and pulled BACKWARDS who only escaped by cutting all
lines, etc, which can only be explained by the presence of subs in the area.

The sub drivers have little they can do to avoid this situation. Most trawlers
hang out nets a few miles long which are close to dragging the seafloor. They
can't dive under the nets, and they can't hear the nets on sonar unless they
go active, so thay cannot avoid them.

The new solution(s) proposed by the Royal Navy were:
	1) equip the trawler's nets with noisemakers so that the subs can
	   avoid them. (I wonder what they are proposing for ships from other
	   nations...)
	2) giving the captains financial aid to buy "break off" nets which
	   snap off in the case they net someone a bit too big (actually these
	   nets have existed for a while, but as they are more expensive than
	   the normal nets not everyone used them. The financial aid is new)
	3) let the trawlers know that subs "might" be passing through these X
	   sectors. The advantage being that the other sectors are "safe" (up
	   to now they were loath to do so, to keep Ivan in the dark on sub
	   movements as much as possible -- The decline in East-West tensions
	   seems to be the big difference here) 

>On november 22nd, the trawler Antares caught a sub in its nets, and
>was pulled under. The four crewmen paid ''the catch'' with their lives.
>This time, the Navy could not deny it.
Did not deny it. There are other cases in which it could not be logically
denied, but they still chose to do so in the National Interest (give
interpretation on right/wrong your personal bias).

>* The fishermen say the subs are using the trawlers as mock-targets. 
>Could this be true? Why would they do that? How close would they get?
Let's give the sub drivers the credit of common sense here will we? This
region is just too dangerous for them to be playing games like this with
trawlers. They have gotten a lot of bad press on this already. I don't think
they are looking for more.

>* Would this also happen with American subs?
American subs, French subs, in short ANY subs in the area -- even Russian subs
if we'd let them play in the Irish Sea/smart enough to go anyway.

>* Who knows details about previous accidents in Britain? 
>Or where could I find them?
Try your nearest public library, and look at the old newspapers. Incidents are
fairly common.

>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
>Oh, by the way: Greenpeace published a scientific report yesterday, which
>proved that almost half of the British nucleair submarinefleet has a leaking
>reactor. ,,They are moving chernobyls'', a Greenpeace-spokeswoman said. 
I'd be carefull with that "proved" word if I were you, especially coming from
biased sources. Should you wish to inform us, post the data and let us come to
our own conclusions.

Pat
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