Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: dragon!cms@gatech.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Preaching to the dead? Message-ID: Date: 11 Dec 90 07:26:05 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited Lines: 103 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes: OFM says: > [This is a discussion of I Pet 4:6, which talks about Christ having > preached "to them that are dead." At first glance, it seems to imply > that they got a second chance after dead. David believes that because > it says "are dead" and not "were dead", it is not talking about people > who had physically died. I pointed out that this distinction isn't > present in the Greek, which simply says "the gospel was preached to > the dead." --clh] David Wagner's comments deleted since they are summarized well above. > By the way, I take 4:6 as a reference to 3:19. --clh] Quickly, here's NAB: "For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead that, though condemned in the flesh in human estimation, they might live in the spirit in the estimation of God." It seems to me that because the dead are indeed judged the same dead must know by whom they are being judged (that is, Christ). Those who never heard of Christ must be preached the good news so that they will know how and by whom they are being judged, those who heard but did not believe must be preached the good news so they will know that the gospel was/is indeed the truth. Whether this means that they are capable of salvation after death or that, in order to suffer eternally in hell, they must have the gospel preached to them so that they will know why they are suffering, I can guess and choose the former over the latter. Yet, besides Hebrews, this seems to contradict Luke 16:19-31 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus), where Abraham says there is a great gulf between "heaven" and "hell" that cannot be crossed. The rich man requests that Lazarus be sent to the man's five brothers that they might repent, but Abraham replies that if they don't believe the Torah and the Prophets, they wouldn't believe even if someone were raised from the dead. This seems to be prophetic if Jesus indeed raised the same Lazarus from the dead and the Pharisees still did not believe. The question I'm trying to raise is: The gospel is preached to the dead to what purpose? In addition, if the gulf which cannot be breached by human beings still stands, then why is it said that Christ is Lord of both the living and the dead so that those on earth, in heaven, and under the earth bend the knee at the name of Jesus (Philippians 9-11)? It's interesting to me that in the above Lucan passage, Christ speaks of Abraham of the first covenant of faith, and does not mention the Son of Man. Thus, the gulf could not be breached before his death on the cross, but could be breached afterward. After all, before His death, Abraham was able to preach the concept that the good are rewarded and the evil are punished to the evil rich man tormented in the flames and do so from heaven. So, communication is allowed, whereas physical contact (help) is not. The idea of Jesus being Lord of heaven and hell and earth indicates that his Lordship extends to physical contact with the world of the dead and help (setting the prisoners free). Otherwise, Jesus did nothing new in communicating the gospel to the dead; such preaching is without purpose unless we the living overhear it. The purpose of Abraham's remarks to the rich man, for example, do nothing for the rich man, but are exclusively for the purpose of instructing the living, which the rich man seems to understand, cf. his request for the instruction of his brothers by the risen Lazarus. 1 Peter 3:18-22, piecemeal, to save space: "Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This refers to the time period after his death before his resurrection when he rescued the dead from prison. "[Baptism] is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him." This refers to his physical resurrection from the dead. So, perhaps he preached to the prisoners, rose from the dead, then carried them with him. I don't think the exact sequence of events is terribly relevant. At any rate, my Jerome commentary tells me that the gospel was preached to those now dead, to Christians who heard the good news either from Christ or from his disciples, and who had died before the letter of Peter was written. It says that "the dead" should not "facilely be identified with the 'imprisoned spirits' of 3:19." My New Jerome adds, "the point of the text is to vindicate those Christians who had accepted the gospel on earth but who had since died (cf. 1 Thess 4:13-18). This text has quite a different theme from that of 3:19." Peake's notes that it may be a reference to the spiritually dead, that is, those who have died in the death of Christ. Oops, I just remembered I have an appointment, more later..... -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia