Path: utzoo!censor!geac!torsqnt!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved, Always Saved? Message-ID: Date: 11 Dec 90 06:54:57 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Houston -- Department of Mathematics Lines: 123 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: >Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because >they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always >saved". >I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... >Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he > begins to put faith in Jesus. Actually, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,.." "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's posession--to the praise of his glory." A person's salvation was predestined when he was 'chosen before the creation of the world.' Those who are predestined persevere in their faith until death. HOWEVER, the JW's teach that we must keep persevering AFTER death, for we will be resurrected only to be tested more during a Millenium. (See my reply to Steve's article, Re: JW's Faith vs. Works, in talk.religion.misc) (Why does he post in both newsgroups? Do I have to look for every newsgroup he's posted in, and make the same reply?) It is possible to lose faith, see the parable of the sower. Further, we can't know who is elected. So while I don't subscribe to the usual notion of 'Once Saved Always Saved', I certainly believe that 'Once Elected, Always Elected'. >Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but >much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." > > This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as > stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to > realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. > >Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the >truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of >judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." > > Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what > sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his > salvation. It encourages faithfulness. What Steve says here doesn't seem that bad. but there is a serpent lurking here. The NIV has "If we deliberately *keep on* sinning..." The translation he quotes gives the false impression that if we deliberately sin once, we are lost. Can Steve honestly say he has never deliberately sinned? (since he 'received the knowledge of the truth', that is). If we read 10:25: "Let us not give up meeting together, as *some are in the habit of doing*,..." and v. 29: "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace?" This pretty well defines what it means to 'deliberately keep on sinning'. It means to show utter contempt for Christ, the holy spirit, and the sacrifice of Christ (the blood of the covenant). There is no more sacrifice for sin, if we hold Christ's sacrifice in contempt, that is, we reject it. What is spoken of here is the 'Sin against the Holy Spirit', also, the 'sin that leads to death', 1 John 5:16. For parallel passages see Hebrews 6:4-8, Mark 3:29. The real sin is losing faith. God's promise, "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" is still sure, and the sins are still paid for. But those who utterly reject the Holy Spirit, have no faith, and also reject the forgiveness that is still offered them. For such people, John said, we should not even pray, because they will not return to faith. Needless to say, in our exercise of church discipline, we must be extremely cautious about saying that someone has sinned against the Holy Spirit in this way. Even when we excommunicate someone, we still hope and pray that they will repent -- see 1 & 2 Corinthians for a case of a man excommunicated for incest, who repented and was accepted back into the fellowship of the church. >Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... I don't doubt this, but I can't find it in my Bible! :-) David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston. [I would appreciate a bit more charity here. It's fairly common to have parallel discussions on t.r.m and s.r.c. I doubt he's trying to hide anything from you. While I agree that the NIV translation of Heb 10:26 is the more accurate, I'm not sure it solves the problem. Steve's concern seems to be that you are allowing for people who are "saved" but do not live lives of repentance. Interpreting Heb 10:26 clarifies things, but still may not go to the heart of the matter. At least in the Calvinist tradition, there was an attempt to hold both the concept that someone God had chosen could not lose salvation, and the fact that people obviously fall away from the Church and salvation. The way to do this is very simple: since a person whom God has chosen to bestow faith on will live as a repentant sinner, those who do not obviously are not chosen. Only God is able to see into the human heart. There may be people who give every external appearance of being "saved", but fall away. These people are also clearly not chosen. They are the shallow ground in which visible results spring up quickly, but do not take root. --clh]