Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!caen!uflorida!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: A Question Message-ID: Date: 12 Dec 90 03:21:32 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 48 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu > Excerpts from netnews.soc.religion.christian: 4-Dec-90 Re: A Question > Frank Farkas@eng.sun.com (6628) > Brother, when we teach the unimportance of good works, we teach things > which > is not true at all. I believe that good works are important, other wise > we > wouldn't be taught by the scriptures that they are. When we say that we > don't need to have good works to be joint heirs with Christ, we are > teaching something which is false. I do not say that good works are unimportant. I didn't imply that (see the last paragraph I wrote). I fully acknowledge their importance. I agree that scripture teaches this. But it does NOT teach that we can be saved by doing them. What good works did the criminal who was crucified with Jesus do? NONE. The last thing he did before he died was have faith (an active verb) in Jesus. We're going to see a man in heaven who did NO good works after he was saved. Saying we need good works to be joint heirs with Christ is NOT correct. I submit to you that the crook is a joint heir with Him. We are, however, called/required/expected to do them after we're saved (while still on the earth, this life, etc. etc...) But we DO NOT earn salvation with them. It is necessarily a gift. It therefore, by definition, isn't something we earn. To say otherwise throws GRACE out the window. Either it's a gift, or it's earned. How can anyone EARN salvation? They can't. If it's earned, then I go to hell. And so does Peter, Paul, Mary, (ha ha...sorry.) and all the rest. But it's not. It's a FREE GIFT. Romans 8:9 (well, the whole chapter, really) puts things in the proper order: FIRST you get to the state where the Spirit of God lives in you (a.k.a. 'salvation'...this happened to the crook, and is by FAITH) and THEN the renewal process (turn from sin and 'live a christian life') begins. It says (vs. 14) those who are led by the Spirit of God (i.e. have been saved) are sons of God...vs 16 then calls us joint-heirs with Jesus. But the whole process is not started by doing works. It starts with faith. Romans 4 deals with the fact that FAITH is where it comes from. Works may give us grounds for boasting, but not with God. In conclusion, I do not at all downplay the importance of good works. But I really take issue with any teaching that says 'you have to be THIS good to get saved.' No, you don't. There are high standards for a christian to meet, but meeting those standards without/before having faith in Jesus will not do diddly squat for getting a person into heaven. The faith comes first. If it's the other way, then that criminal should be in hell and all the pharisees should not have been rebuked for anything. They had the works down pat. No faith in God, though. And we all know what Jesus had to say about that.