Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!wuarchive!bcm!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: wfg@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Frank Galneder) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved, Always Saved? Message-ID: Date: 12 Dec 90 04:04:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: HP Roseville Networks Division Lines: 149 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In soc.religion.christian, stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always saved". I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... Hi Steve: I would like to respond to your curiosity by addressing the Scriptures you list one at a time. I apologize for the length of this reply, but the doctrine of eternal security is not as obvious as many would like, although I do believe it is sound Biblical teaching. Please view this response as food for thought. > Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he > begins to put faith in Jesus. I agree with R.T. Kendall's remarks concerning this passage from his book "Once saved, always saved": "I do not believe that 'saved' in this place means salvation as we have defined it in this book (i.e. to be preserved from hell; to go to heaven when you die). Sometimes the word 'saved' has a rather different meaning as in 1Tim 2:15: 'But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety.' This refers to the dignity of womanhood being restored in light of Eve's sin (1Tim 2:13-14). I think 'saved' in Matt 24:13 means a miraculous deliverance after a most severe kind of tribulation and persecution. I think the term 'saved' here is used as in Jer 30:7: 'How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it'. Thus, in our Lord's warning of an awful ordeal to come in Matt 24, He promised them a victorious escape from the entrapments of severe persecution." It is important to place this verse in context. The question is, who endures to the end? When one studies the book of Revelation, it is plain that God will stop the forces of nature and of evil while He seals a number of folk. Who is going to endure to the end? Those whom He seals at the beginning. Matt 24 speaks of the end of the age, so does Revelation. Those who are sealed are "saved" from great ordeals. > Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but > much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." > This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as > stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to > realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. I could say quite a bit about this verse, but for the sake of brevity, I'll refrain. The best answer comes in the next verse anyway: "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose". God works out that which HE worked in you. If God has saved you, He has saved you by faith plus nothing! God does not accept any kind of good works for salvation, but after you are saved, God talks to you about your works. The salvation HE worked in you by faith is a salvation HE will work out also. See James 2:17-18.J. Vernon McGee put it this way: "Only God can see the heart; He knows our true condition. He knows if I have saving faith; He knows if you have saving faith. But your neighbor can't see your faith. The only thing he can see is the works of faith. True faith will work itself out so that the people around us will be able to tell that we are different, that we are Christians." > Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the > truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of > judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." > Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what > sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his > salvation. It encourages faithfulness. Yikes! Be careful with this passage. If we took your approach, indeed if we went beyond what you are suggesting and took the passage at face value, it would seem to say that any deliberate sin after becoming a Christian would not be forgiven. It also suggests that once that sin took away your salvation, your salvation could not be re-gained. Do you agree with this? If this is true how can anyone be saved? To address this passage, allow me to quote Dr. Charles Stanley from his book "Eternal Security: Can you be sure": "...the Bible never makes a distinction between which sins Christ's death paid for. If there is a sacrifice for a few sins, why not a sacrifice for all sins a Christian commits? The author's (of Hebrews) point is clear: there is no more sacrifice for sins of any kind for anybody. He writes, 'But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect those who are being made holy. (Heb 10:12-14)' Jesus is out of the sacrificing business. The next time he stands up, He will assume the role of a Judge, not a Lamb. Remember, the people in the audience are primarily Jewish Christians. All their lives they had waited for a Messiah. One who would come to take away their sins. One who would establish a new covenant, a covenant so powerful that God would forget their sins forever (see Heb 10:17). Whereas we today look back to the cross for forgiveness, these men and women were in the habit of looking ahead for forgiveness. The fact that they had never seen Christ or heard Him teach would have made it especially difficult to break this habit. In keeping with his theme of Christ as Messiah, the author of Hebrews takes this opportunity to remind his audience yet again that the sacrifice they had been waiting for had already taken place. To paraphrase, 'If you willfully sin, remember that the next scheduled event is an encounter not with Christ the Savior but with Christ the Judge.' The author of Hebrews is warning his Jewish audience of the consequences of willful disobedience to Christ. They can no longer justify their sin in the light of the coming Messiah, He has already come. ...the statement 'there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins' is not meant to be negative. The writer says the same thing in verse 18 where the mood of the text is clearly positive. Also, remember that a Christian will be tried by fire at the judgement seat of Christ." > Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... I can't find these verses in my Bible. Perhaps you meant Heb 6:4-6. This posting is very long as it is so I will post my remarks to this passage in another response. Once again, I hope these remarks will be thought provoking. In keeping with this desire, I would like to pose some questions of my own; questions I have struggled with in my study of eternal security: - If salvation wasn't permanent, why introduce the concept of adoption? Wouldn't it have been better to describe salvation in terms of a legal contract between God and man? - In 2Cor 1:21-22 Christians are said to be sealed. What is the significance of a seal that can be continually removed and re-applied? What does it really seal? - If a man or woman ends up in hell, who has at some point put their trust in Christ, doesn't that make what Jesus said to Nicodemus a lie, or at best a half-truth? - If one's salvation is not a settled issue, how can one ever be "anxious for nothing"? There is a peace, a confidence, a thankfulness, a joy that defies explanation and permeates the soul when the truth of eternal security grips an individual. I pray that Christians everywhere will study and become aware that no one will snatch them out of His hand! Again, my apologies for the length of this reply. God's richest blessings to you... Frank Galneder -------