Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!wuarchive!mit-eddie!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Once Saved, Always Saved? Message-ID: Date: 14 Dec 90 08:57:33 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: U of Washington, Computer Science, Seattle Lines: 60 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In reply to: bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) You replied to many of Steve Paterson's Scriptural verses, trying to show assurance of salvation. For brevity, I show only one of your replies: > > Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > > Matt 24:13 is talking about a QUALITY associated with a saved > person - continuance in the faith. Could this be any clearer > than in I John 2:19? !?! > > "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. > For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with > us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." > > This is in complete agreement with Matt 24:13. Both say he > that endures to the end will be saved. John expounds on that > and says he that does not endure never was. > It seems to me that you have only shown that if someone is really saved, then he is saved. What if those who ended up not saved had done their profession of faith, and had really thought they were saved? How does any of us know he isn't one of these? This is why I have always thought that this "assurance" seems pretty useless in practice. Suppose Elmo is a habitual sinner of the worst kind, used to doing all sorts of foul things. Suppose he sincerely repents and professes faith. You seem to be saying that Elmo is now saved forever, no matter what he may do ever again. Elmo has sincerely repented, and genuinely believes the right things, at least for today. According to your theory, Elmo is now absolutely guaranteed of salvation. But what about tomorrow? Suppose there's a great opportunity to make millions ripping people off, Elmo gives in, and leads the rest of his days swigging rum in the Virgin Islands, unrepentant for any sin, and cursing his conversion to Christianity. In addition, he does even fouler things than before. My point is that under your conditions, Elmo should be assured of his salvation because of his one day of faith, even though his later life was a complete contradiction of that faith. * If Elmo's assurance was wrong, why is his assurance on that one day any different than that which any of us can have who does not know the future? Remember that he was completely sincere, and well meaning for that one day. If this "guarantee" can be revoked through later bad action, then it is not really a guarantee at all, since it depends upon unforeseen circumstances. * If his assurance was right, doesn't this conflict with the Bible verses you've already seen, in view of his later unrepentant life? If Elmo can't be guaranteed because his day of faith, how can any of us be guaranteed, despite years of it? Rather, we should always be careful lest we should fall, though confident that if we do fall and yet sincerely repent, forgiveness and salvation are still possible, subject to God's grace. Michael louns@washington.cs.edu