Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken!sun-barr!newstop!sundc!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: srchtec!johnb@gatech.edu (John Baldwin) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Missed Point Message-ID: Date: 14 Dec 90 09:08:09 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: search technology, inc. Lines: 178 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article spock@maths.tcd.ie (Tommy Hayes (Thanks Dr.W.)) writes: > Why can't everybody just realise that Jesus was just an ordinary, > albeit very ahead of his time, person who had a lot of brilliant > ideas about how we should live? > There is absolutly no need to bring in god,heaven or anything like > that to explain anything,and anybody who does was either brainwashed > by their parents or else are too ignorant to think objectivly about their > religion. [Deleted for brevity] > Objective replies will be appreciated.... I wish I had more time to address this properly, because it is such a good question! [I couldn't have set one up better myself! :-)] I would have no problem realizing Jesus as "just an ordinary... person who had a lot of brilliant ideas" if it weren't for a great bulk of Scripture references to the contrary. I shan't go into the whole discussion of higher and lower criticism, hermeneutics, and the like; I will simply say for the time being that I have not been able to rationally and honestly discount the validity of any Scripture references which I have studied. [Which is why I am called a Christian.] * (Gospel of) John 8:48-59. Starting at verse 56: [Jesus speaking] 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; When Jesus said "I AM," He was using exactly the same turn of phrase (in Hebrew) that GOD used when He responded to Moses' question about who he (Moses) should say gave him the commands for the Jews. God's response was: "I AM that I AM." Unless I'm terribly mistaken, the name "I AM" in Hebrew continues to this day to be considered so holy that it is still one of the seven "Names of God" which are forbidden even to be spoken. Jesus' statement above was tantamount to saying "...because I'm GOD, that's why..." The penalty (in the Jewish Law) for blasphemy was death by stoning, which these Jews completely understood. If Jesus was "just an ordinary person," then, by the Law, these people would have been acting entirely correctly. Indeed, *I* was forced to resolve a dispute of my own... either Jesus was a megalomaniac, and probably a madman, or else He was the Son of God... i.e. Diety in His Own right. The evidence I've been able to see all points to Jesus' claims being entirely correct. Another reason why I ended up becoming a Christian for rational reasons. More references: * (Gospel of) Matthew, Chapter 16 Starting at verse 13: 13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Phillippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the 'Son of Man,' am?" 14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." Bear in mind that each of these figures were *dead* at the time of this question being asked. Obviously, the masses believed there was *something* supernatural about Him... 15 He said to them, "But who do YOU say that I am?" [emphasis mine --jtb] 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." "Christ" was (and is) a TITLE, *not* a surname. It means "Messiah." If I may be allowed to paraphrase... Peter: You're not only the Messiah! You're GOD'S SON!! Jesus: You're right, Peter, son of Jonah. And the only way for you to have known that is if My Father (God) told you so... IMHO, brilliant but ordinary people don't go around claiming to be God. If someone else tries to give you (or me) the title of "God," the only non-reprehensible action is to immediately disclaim it. Unless you really ARE God. * (Gospel of) Matthew, Chapter 9 1 He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 And behold, they broght to Him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you." 3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, "This Man blasphemes!" 4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 "For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise and walk'? 6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on Earth to forgive sins" -- then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bid, and go to your house." 7 And he arose and departed to his house. Keep in mind that Jesus Bar-Joseph was a Jew, and this was in a Jewish culture. Only God has the ability to forgive people of their (general) sins. Each of us can forgive someone when they do something *to* us, but only God can forgive EVERYTHING. And here is Jesus, a Jew, in a Jewish city, claiming to forgive sins. BTW, there were no reliable cures for paralysis in the day --- and no "instantaneous" cures available even now. Jesus backs up His claim to Godship here with a demonstration. Earlier, in Matthew, chapter 4, is the account of Jesus being tempted in the "wilderness," by Satan (whose name means "Adversary"), before starting His public life... 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge concerning you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.'" 7 Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'" We are not specifically provided with the information as to how Matthew came to know about this dialogue. We DO know that Matthew was personally acquainted with Jesus. Without conjecture about the path the information took, the Old Testament references which Satan has the gall to quote above are generally taken to refer to the (then future) Messiah. Satan (or whoever originally ascribed the quotes in Matt. to him) equates "Messiah" and "Son of God." Jesus makes no attempt to rebut this; on the contrary, He answers in anger: "YOU DON'T TEMPT GOD." The end of this story (verses 1-11 of chapter 4) comes with Jesus ORDERING Satan to leave Him! Well, I've spent a lot more time than I rightfully had to spend. I could go on like this for hours; hopefully this is enough for a start, and other can answer more specific questions. Hope this helped! -- John Baldwin | srchtec!johnb@gatech.edu | johnb%srchtec.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu [Most Jews do not speak any name of God. And in fact the actual pronunciation of the holiest -- whose consonants are YHWH -- is no longer known. (That it is related to I AM in Hebrew seems true though.) I should note that the term "Son of God" could have a variety of meanings. "Son of" is a Hebrew idiom. Son of god could mean simply godly or have a stronger meaning. Peter seems to have meant something fairly strong, but at the time of that confession probably not quite what modern Christians mean by the term. Oddly enough "Son of Man" as used of Christ is probably a stronger term, because it seems to refersto Dan 7:13, which describes a supernatural creature. (However the same idiom applies here, so literally "son of man" simply means "human".) --clh]