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From: kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Buddha Dharma and free thinking
Message-ID: <1990Dec13.022300.5469@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: 12 Dec 90 19:50:18 GMT
References: <1990Dec7.011311.2389@nas.nasa.gov> <1990Dec8.020416.27265@nas.nasa.gov> <1990Dec11.022212.10949@nas.nasa.gov>
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In <1990Dec11.022212.10949@nas.nasa.gov> mayne@sun10.scri.fsu.edu (William (Bill) Mayne) writes:


>In article <1990Dec8.020416.27265@nas.nasa.gov> kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov ( Keith Evans) writes:
>>...In the first 42 years of Shakyamuni's preaching life,
>>that is must be the Way. Also in these earlier sutras, he taught that
>                                                        --------------
>>women and men of learning could not attain Buddhahood. If he said such
> -----------------------------------------------------

>I seriously doubt that he said such things then. He may have said that
>through learning *alone* men and women cannot attain Buddhahood, but

Men in the world of learning, which means what you said. Sorry that
I was not explicit.

>Actually I think it a preposterous and even slanderous charge against
>Sakyamuni to suggest he practiced deliberate deception for most of
>his life. If that were the case why would you accept something he
>supposedly taught at the end of his life? If a teacher told me "I've
>been lying to you and everybody else for more than 40 years, but what
>I'm telling you now is the truth" I would hardly accept his teaching.

Shakyamuni used expedient means. When at 30, he gained enlighenment,
he preached first to his 6 disciples who had abandonded him. He foune
that they were not ready to comprehend what he had taught. So he
employed various means to prepare them for it.

There various omens when he began preaching the sutras. But none were
as auspicious as those before he started to preach the Lotus Sutra.
The 5000 arrogant men got up and walked away, saying that they 
already understood his teachings. In the 16th chapter of the Lotus
Sutra, he declared that he had actually gained enlightenment many
many lifetimes ago, in the distant past from his bodhisattva
practice.

>>[The Lotus Sutra]...
>>is also the first time he says that women and men of learning can
>>attain enlightenment.

>If the Buddha was in fact this deceptive and inconsistent this is
>quite different even than giving limited teaching earlier and
>fuller teaching later. I could believe in later teaching which
>expands on earlier teaching, but not flatly contradicting it.

Back then, women had very little rank in society, not like today.
In the Lotus Sutra, the dragon king and his ten daughters were
able to gain Buddhahood, demonstrating that one could gain
Buddhahood just as they are, through faith in the Lotus Sutra.

>that possibility. But if Nichiren was right then Sakyamuni was wrong,
>even though Nichiren depends largely on the supposed statements
>of Sakyamuni.

>Besides, the early teaching of the Buddha uses appeal to reason
>and experience. This is why I find it so compelling. Nichiren

In the early teachings, he taught according to the listener's
mind. So, people who read them now, say that this accords with
their mind and so it must be the way. In the Lotus Sutra, he
taught according to the mind of the Buddha. He taught about 
his enlightenment which is why none of his disciples could
answer his questions for him


--
   Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
            Respectfully,
  	         Keith Evans		kde@heawk1.gsfc.nasa.gov